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Ewergrin
Tuesday, November 30th, 2004, 07:38 PM
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/xcalabr08/comparison.html?mtbrand=AOL_US

Interesting page I found.

ASATRU TRADITION
Asatru means "loyalty to the Aesir." Asatru followers worship the Norse pantheon of Deities. They are also very conservative in their beliefs. Asatru stresses the values of Honor, Duty, Courage, and Honesty. Those of the Asatru believe that the goal of living is to lead a worthwhile and useful life, and they reject both the decaying fabric of modern culture as well as the phony moralisms of those who would plunge them back to the dark ages. Their values are based on individual liberty, tempered with responsibility, as outlined in the Nine Noble Virtues: Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, and Perseverance. In keeping with this independent spirit, they reject religious hierarchy and dogma, even as they respect learned teachers and the ways of their faith. No individual can stand alone without kinsmen and they believe strongly in the power and importance of the family. A strong religious community is also very important to them and they gather into groups, known as kindreds, to worship their Gods. While they do not believe any religion is for everyone, the Asatru welcome anyone to their faith who is sincerely interested in pursuing the old ways. Their religion does not concern itself solely with the Gods and Goddesses. They seek the old mysteries of the land, and honor the Landvaettir (land spirits) who dwell in the trees and rocks and are tied to the land and waters. They also honor their ancestors, both those who have gone to the other worlds, and those such as the Disir, who remain connected to Middle Earth in order to watch over and protect their family.

ODINIST TRADITION
Odinism is a pagan tradition where Odin is the prime Deity. The Norse Gods are also involved in the tradition. The eight festival of the pagan year are celebrated, yet they have their own distinct names. Odin is the God of Wisdom. Just like with Asatru. Odinists take pride in Honor, honesty, duty, and courage. Odinism is a modern revival of the pre-Christian Pagan traditions of Northern Europe. These Traditions take many forms, but are centred around two distinctive groups of divinities - the Aesir and the Vanir. The Northern Tradition draws upon both the Norse and Anglo-Saxon mythology, from various sources including Iceland. The Aesir, as described in Scandinavian myths, are sky Gods and include Odin, often seen as the High God or All-Father principle, his wife Frigga, and Thor, Tyr, and Balder, amongst others. The Vanir are Gods of the Earth, agriculture and fertility. The best-known Vanir deities are Frey and Freya. Today, Pagans following the Northern tradition often worship Gods from both the Vanir and Aesir, although some specialise in working with one or the other. Some Pagans practising the Northern Traditions prefer to use the word Asatru to Odinist. Asatru, meaning belief in the Gods or loyalty to the Aesir, is a more general term and also more accurate, given that Odinists do not only worship the God Odin. Modern practice of the Northern Tradition is rapidly evolving. It explores the mythologies of Northern Europe and the mysteries of the runes. It is a way of life embracing values of loyalty, honour, courage and good fellowship. It emphasizes communing with the Divine as well as embracing the practice of magic for healing and spiritual development. Followers of Asatru celebrate seasonal festivals and are deeply concerned with environmental issues.

Sigurd
Saturday, October 15th, 2005, 12:00 PM
ummm...I had always taken it for granted that Odinism and Asatru are two different names for the same thing...?

Gorm the Old
Saturday, October 15th, 2005, 03:54 PM
The claim that Asatru welcomes anyone who is sincerely interested in pursuing the old ways surely has some exceptions. I knew a young "black" man (actually more of a cafe au lait color) who, strange to tell, was deeply interested in the Norse gods and wanted to adopt Asatru and join in worship of the old Norse gods with others of like inclination. He was very distressed and offended when he was indignantly rejected by the Asatruar. Is it, then, not true that Asatru is restricted to folk of Nordic ancestry ?

Ewergrin
Saturday, October 15th, 2005, 04:56 PM
ummm...I had always taken it for granted that Odinism and Asatru are two different names for the same thing...?
Here is a link (http://www.boudicca.de/folkuni.html) you will find interesting.

Sigurd
Sunday, October 16th, 2005, 05:34 PM
Yup. Definitely folkish and not universialist, though :D. I'd probably actually call myself a folkIST.

Grimolf
Sunday, October 16th, 2005, 08:46 PM
An interesting article called 'Why We Call It Odinism (http://geocities.com/odinistlibrary/OLArticles/Articles/Odinismbyanyothername.htm)'

:hve­rungur:
Monday, October 24th, 2005, 07:58 AM
ummm...I had always taken it for granted that Odinism and Asatru are two different names for the same thing...?

Odinism, Asatru, Germanic/Norse Heathenism, Forn Sid, all different names and titles describing the same beliefs. The folk and natural religion/spiritual path of the Germanic tribes of europe and people who are dissended from those tribes. I used to use Odinism, now I use Asatru, only because I am Icelandic and using the term Asatru is more of a traditionally sounding thing. If you want to get technical, since the coming of Christianity our ancestors probably called it Forn Sid or something alone the lines of "The old ways" or "The old beliefs" in whatever their native language was. Titles mean nothing without the basis of our ancestral ways. The connections to the Gods and Goddesses through Ancestry, Blood, Culture and Morals. If you're not Germanic and mostly Germanic at that, you have no right to follow our ancestral ways. Just as I have no right to follow the Folk based spiritual path of the Japanese, Africans or even the Greeks.

Sigurd
Wednesday, October 26th, 2005, 11:09 PM
True, true.

But I guess with being of Austrian and German heritage I am on the safe side. :D

Hrafn Odinnsson
Saturday, August 9th, 2008, 07:54 PM
An old post here but worthy of attention.

"Asatru vs. Odinism" is interesting. I take it that Odinism sees that Odin is the prime God of the AEsir and the rest of the Gods are different facets of Odin, while Asatru sees that the AEsir Gods are totally sepperate from one another in spiritual/physical form, basically a true polytheism.

arthor
Monday, August 11th, 2008, 05:25 PM
I personally take them to be two names for the same thing. Not sure what authority some people claim for branding things in this way.

I personally am not totally comfortable with either because Asatruer implies the exclusion of the Vanir. Odinist implies exclusion of the rest of the gods. On the other hand, if I was to call myself an Ullrist because Ullr was the first god I felt drawn to, that would mean I would have to explain more often. As well as Ullr, I am drawn more to the Vanir actually but as I am more Anglo-Saxon rather than Norse then I should be talking about Woden, Ingwe, Thunor etc etc. It is just a habit from the bulk of the material written about them that makes many of us think of them with their Norse names.

Odin is perhps most familiar to people who are generally ignorant of our beliefs and that is why his name has generally been used to refer to the heathen beliefs of Northern Europeans. There is no difference at all. You cannot believe in Odin without believing in the rest of the Aesir and Vanir.

It is a problem when one finds encyclopedia entries on things. I am also curious as to who "rejected" this black man. There is no organised official body of Odinists or Asatruer like the christians have to reject this chap. A group of Odinists or Asatruer may decide that they don't wish to have those "not of the blood" and are within their rights to reject him from their group. I personally agree with them. There are a number of liberal groups who accept blacks as well as other types of people and I think it is important that people know this but I would be asking this chap why doesn't he try and find the gods of his ancestors?? Besides which, it is between him and the gods, not some group. Just because catholics think that the pope is holier than they are?????

Actually I am a bit miffed that this group seems to have claimed the right to say that they are Asatruer and almost imply that they are right and others are wrong. This is the very thing that gets up my nose about organised religion and I don't like the idea of mine going that way.

There is another angle on this. Heathens in general are striving for legal recognition from the government. The government needs a "body" to deal with. This body will have to shy away from any no blacks or no homosexuals stance (despite it being what many heathens believe) in order to get recognition. The waters are further muddied by differences of opinion on what the official line is among heathens. As a consequence there is unlikely to be any official recognition of Asatru in whatever guise it comes under.

Gorm the Old
Tuesday, August 12th, 2008, 03:00 AM
Several years ago, I knew a young black man in Michigan [actually, he's more racially mixed than Tiger Woods or B. Hussein Obama] who sought to join Asatru in Michigan and was deeply hurt and offended to be summarily and even indignantly rejected.

I felt, at the time, that they could have shown a little more consideration for his feelings. Their position seems to have been that only a person of Germanic ancestry could join Asatru.

He was not trying to start trouble or anything of that sort. Naively, he just found Asatru an interesting religion and wanted to be part of it. The thought never even occurred to him that it was intended for Germanic whites only.

Brynhild
Sunday, August 17th, 2008, 05:40 AM
I really don't see why practising a specific religious belief has to be complicated by such nitpicking dribble.

Our ancestors lived by their thoughts and deeds, they wouldn't really care for any of this and neither do I.

Just for the record, I am a Polytheist Heathen - of both the Celtic and Norse pantheons. I am also - for the most part - solitary, and I think myself to be glad of it.

KWulf
Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 01:09 AM
The terms Odinism and Asatru are linked more to the groups that use them history than actual difference in belief. Groups using the term Asatru generally descend from Stephen McKnallen's form of worshipping the Germanic gods whereas Odinism came about mostly from the work of Else Christensen in Canada. Here in England there are no groups who use the term Asatru that i know of, only Odinism. And the main vehicle of Odinism in this country is that of the Odinic Rite which was formed by John Yeowell at roughly the same time McKnallen formed his Asatru Alliance. The main differences between them that i notice is slight, usually heathen terminology and oraganisational structuring are the main points that seperate them. Odinism is almost completely folkish but you do also get folkish Asatru as well as the more well known universalist tradition that came about when the Asatru Alliance split in the 80s down to that ideological difference of whether only those with European ancestry can be in the group or not.

Personally both groups are a bit too New Age for me and so to me there isnt much difference between them because i like to follow more reconstructive lines using historical sources similar to the way American Theodists (which developed independently of both Asatru and Odinism) goes about their business. As you can see i use the term Wodenist, but that's simply a borrowed term from old Victorian history books which i use just to point out to people that i follow the Anglo-Saxon creed of Woden and no that of Norse Othin.

Bedford Brown
Saturday, January 23rd, 2010, 06:44 AM
It means Nordic Ancestry means of the blood. Blacks are not of European Ancestry, and not of the blood and soil.
Blacks, jews and other muds are not of our blood and are not welcome...

Ulfvaldr
Sunday, January 24th, 2010, 01:54 AM
ummm...I had always taken it for granted that Odinism and Asatru are two different names for the same thing...?

I some what agree with this, If we start getting into, Asatru this, and Odinism that, we become the no different than the Christans with hundreds of different religions that are not really different. I also believe that Asatru/Odinism is a northern European religion and should not be open to other races.
The one thing I do agree with the Bible about is, that the Gods made man in their image, white for white, black for black, and so on.
Perhaps universalism is the reason for the diversity in Christian beliefs.

NicoFreyasman
Sunday, March 28th, 2010, 10:39 AM
I've read some interesting views in this thread such as Asatru/Odinism should be for those of Norse and Germanic heritage, just as Hellenism or whatever it is should be for those of Greek heritage.

Now, what if a child is born to a black parent and a Scandinavian parent, would thery be allowed to be apart of the Asatru community or would they be turned away simply because of black ancestry as well?

Blod og Jord
Sunday, March 28th, 2010, 02:16 PM
Now, what if a child is born to a black parent and a Scandinavian parent, would thery be allowed to be apart of the Asatru community or would they be turned away simply because of black ancestry as well?
They would be turned away because of being mixed with a foreign blood.
A child born from such a union would be neither Scandinavian nor black proper.
Our way of life is a folkish one, dedicated to our folk and its preservation. Preservation can't happen only on one level. The spiritual doesn't exist without the ethnic because the ethnic is as the essence of Asatru.

Wotansthrone
Sunday, June 19th, 2011, 11:50 PM
I see it has been awhile since anyone posted in this thread, but I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I am new to these forums, but have been practicing for 4 years. It has been my experience that the terminology as some have said that Asatru/Odinism/Heathenry/Wotanism is basically the same thing. The difference I've noticed is how the religion is interpreted. It's like different demominations so to speak. People who use the term Asatru tend to be the ones who don't want to alienate anybody. These are the people trying to get our religion acknowleged as an accepted faith. Not all but most tend to be "Universalist". Those that use the term Odinism are of the "Folkish" variety, but claim not to be racial. Those that claim Heathenry are more "Tribalist" in that while they are folkish, they view their own folk in terms of inner and outer circle. The outer circle make up the folk community and one has to be invited into their inner circle. Some kindreds take oaths to one another some don't. Depends on the particular kindred. Then you come to the "Wotanists". These are viewed as the red-headed step children of our religion. They openly acknowledge the racial aspect of the religion and make no apologies for it. They reject the universalist viewpoint and are more political in their nature. They subscribe to the folkish standpoint and recognize the folk as the race. Anything of European or Scandinavian ancestry. So as you can see it all comes down to interpretation.

asatrur
Thursday, June 23rd, 2011, 09:16 PM
Interesting thread. I consider myself both Heathen and Asatru and more of a tribalist than folkish perse. I was wondering if anyone knows what happens to pure bred AKC dogs over the generations of breeding? I am not advocating for mating with any race that comes along, but without some new blood bad sh!t happens and we start looking like the folks from deliverance.

As for the question on someone who had two heritages and was wanting to honor one over the other, do we know their motives? What if they want to try and preserve what heritage they feel closest to and are trying to find folks to bond and hopefully propagate their heritage?

In reality, most of us are mutts and should not be honoring the Northern Gods based on the overriding feelings in this thread.

Thorwald
Friday, June 24th, 2011, 12:37 PM
As to who is folk? This is how I look at it.

The various Germanic/Nordic groups are all close cousins. We have close bonds with each other. We need to support each other.

People of Celtic stock are like 2nd and 3rd cousins. We're friendly and have a lot of things in common, but not to the degree of first cousins.

Southern Europeans are 4th and 5th cousins. You know they are distantly related to you, and you try to maintain frith, but at the end of the day you don't feel that close to them.

People outside the European fold are not family at all. Or if they are, they are so distant it doesn't matter.

I think therefore people of Germanic/Nordic stock are close folk and the best people to be a Heathen. People of Celtic stock are somewhat more distant but still acceptable (and many people in America, like myself, have mixed German and Celtic stock). Southern Europeans may be acceptable as distant kin, but they have their own traditions that may interest them. And people outside the Euro family should look somewhere else entirely.

Aedan
Wednesday, June 29th, 2011, 04:21 PM
I think using denomination to describe the differences is a misnomer.

They were both growing (Asatru and Odinism) at diffrent times on different continents.

Odinism:

Alexander Rud Mills, in Australia, would have the first credit in starting: First Anglecyn Church of Odin in Melbourne in 1936.

Asatru:

Late 1960s and early 1970s, In Iceland, ┴satr˙arfÚlagi­, led by farmer Sveinbj÷rn Beinteinsson, was recognized as a religious organization by the Icelandic government in 1973.

In the United States, Stephen McNallen began publishing a newsletter titled The Runestone.


As I have come to see it, Asatru has become for the most part Universalist as a party line. It was not always so, yet with its growth in popularity and reach, it would seem so.

Odinism, for as long as I have known of it, has been folkish. You *have* to be Germanic and not mixed race or some other people. This is why I have always gravitated towards it.

So, we should not let names divide us like Protestants and Catholics.. but the issue of folk vs uni should be stared down and rejected.

OnePercent
Wednesday, June 29th, 2011, 06:11 PM
Interesting thread. I consider myself both Heathen and Asatru and more of a tribalist than folkish perse. I was wondering if anyone knows what happens to pure bred AKC dogs over the generations of breeding? I am not advocating for mating with any race that comes along, but without some new blood bad sh!t happens and we start looking like the folks from deliverance.

I disagree with this sentiment. Bringing in foreign genes is not necessary to maintain healthy stock, just look at historical populations for proof of this. Take the vikings for example, they were certainly not "mutts" by any measure of the imagination. They were of pure Nordic stock, closely related to one another, and certainly not a bunch of degenerate inbreds. If anything history would tend to show that cultural degeneration is actually the result of race mixing more than anything else.

As a result of politically-motivated psuedo-sciences like anthropology there is a great deal of confusion about what actually constitutes inbreeding. Strictly speaking inbreeding only applies to relationships in the direct family line, such as between siblings or between an aunt and her nephew for example. First-cousin couplings can occasionally result in problems as well, though usually only after successive generations of such couplings. The vast majority of first-cousin couplings do not result in any deleterious effects for the offspring. In couplings between second cousins and third cousins there has never been any proven increase for deleterious genetic results. In fact, there has actually been some research from Iceland that has shown that third-cousin couplings produce more and healthier offspring than unrelated couplings do.

The problems that sometimes occur in pure bred dog populations are almost always the result of bad breeding practices by incompetent or cheap breeders, such as breeding siblings together for example. If pure bred dogs are bred with others that are not directly within the family line the potential for deleterious results are much reduced.

My point is that among people of strictly northern european heritage there is far more genetic diversity than is required to avoid genetic problems, so there is absolutely no need to allow different ethnic groups into our "tribes".



As for the question on someone who had two heritages and was wanting to honor one over the other, do we know their motives? What if they want to try and preserve what heritage they feel closest to and are trying to find folks to bond and hopefully propagate their heritage?


The problem with this is that people of mixed heritage can never completely abandon one side of their heritage in favor of another. No matter how much a mulatto wants to be white he or she will never be able to remove their black half. The reason this is a problem when it comes to our religion is because these mixed-heritage people are going to inevitably bring some of their foreign cultural influences into our religion, potentially corrupting the faith or causing a schism. If we start mixing in african or native american cultural beliefs or practices into our religion it will cease to be the religion of our ancestors and become something entirely different.



In reality, most of us are mutts and should not be honoring the Northern Gods based on the overriding feelings in this thread.

Well I certainly don't consider myself a "mutt" and nor do I think that most of the members of Skadi share this opinion. We are all of Germanic ancestry and we all feel a strong sense of pride in our shared Germanic heritage. The Aesir are the ancestral Gods of the Germanic people, therefore it follows that people of German ancestry have every right to worship our ancestral Gods.

Having said all that, I don't believe that anyone should be denied the right to worship the Gods in whatever way they see fit or with whomever they see fit. To me that is the beauty of our religion: there is no authority standing between the worshiper and the Gods. If some Asatruar are accepting of black members than far be it for me to tell them they can't. However, I think that Asatru groups that do engage in this kind of practice will have a hard time maintaining solidarity and will ultimately fade away like some new-age fad, just my opinion.

asatrur
Wednesday, June 29th, 2011, 06:51 PM
Well I certainly don't consider myself a "mutt" and nor do I think that most of the members of Skadi share this opinion. We are all of Germanic ancestry and we all feel a strong sense of pride in our shared Germanic heritage. The Aesir are the ancestral Gods of the Germanic people, therefore it follows that people of German ancestry have every right to worship our ancestral Gods.


I also have a large amount of German blood as much I can tell from research and family records, but I also have some Irish and English, but I a consider myself strongly German. Based on this, would I be welcome at Folkish table with my partial lineage?

I guess that is what I meant by mutt.

OnePercent
Wednesday, June 29th, 2011, 09:01 PM
I also have a large amount of German blood as much I can tell from research and family records, but I also have some Irish and English, but I a consider myself strongly German. Based on this, would I be welcome at Folkish table with my partial lineage?

Well, one thing to remember about heritage is that just because your ancestors are from Ireland or England doesn't mean that they do not have Germanic genes. England especially is very Germanic, genetically speaking. Ireland is too actually, owing to both the Viking and English occupations and inevitable admixture. Celts and Germans are very closely related anyway, and unfortunately I don't think that there are too many pure Celtic bloodlines left in the world. But even some people from more distant ethnic groups like slavs and southern europeans are going to have a large amount of Germanic genes as well.

I guess in my opinion it is really a matter of degrees. If a person is majority Germanic heritage and whatever admixture they may have is from a closely related ethnic group than the difference is inconsequential. On the other hand if someone has a noticable degree of african or mesoamerican heritage it is inevitable that they are going to carry cultural traits that are not fully compatible with Asatru, in its purest form anyway.



I guess that is what I meant by mutt.


I used to describe myself in such terms as well. To me a mutt is a creature composed of very different genetic backgrounds that has a kind of generic appearance, like a mulatto or something, the genes are so mixed up that it is impossible to discern any specific ancestry. People of strictly Northern European heritage can't really be described as mutts imo because our genes all come from a pretty specific gene pool and we are easily recognizable. Although I suppose we are not pure breds in the canine sense either. I guess I just don't like the negative connotations of that term.