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View Full Version : The Armanen Futhork



Moody
Monday, June 28th, 2004, 05:21 PM
http://www.geocities.com/reginheim/runesarmanen.gif
Guido von List's Armanen rune-staves.

Let us look at List's Armanen rune row, rune by rune.


Starting with rune number 1;

http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/fa.gif

FA

This first is called 'Fa'.

In shape and sound, it is obviously related to 'F'.

Graphically it seems to symbolise the horns of cattle.

Its usual meaning in all rune rows IS 'cattle' - and by extension, 'money'.

This makes etymological sense;

Old English 'feoh'; cattle,
same in Old High German 'fihu'.
Compare Latin 'pecus', cattle ['pecunia', money]

Change of 'p' in the Latin branch of IE to 'f' in Germanic.

Von List extends the meaning though, taking into consideration the root of the word Fire.

German Feuer, fire [OHG fiur; Greek pyr]

The Listian runologist S.A. Kummer connects 'FA' to 'father'.

We can see that the runologists make all kinds of connections to the basic root-words of the runes.

Not only that, von List claims that the Havamal contains a passage where each verse refers to a rune in his rune row in sequence.

The first rune has this verse;

"The first promises to help, helpfully, in the struggle and in misery and in every difficulty".

So 'cattle', 'wealth', 'fire' and 'father' could all fit here as being 'helps'.

The Listian 'Knights of the Runes' call FA 'To Help'.

So we can see the meaning move from the concrete ['cattle'] out to more abstract notions - this is the basic way of reading the runes.

Von List brain-storms the rune thus;

"Fa, feh, feo = fire-generation, fire-borer, livestock [Vieh], property, to grow, to wander, to destroy, to shred [fetzen]".
['The Secret of the Runes']

There is a basic creativity in runes then; we take the root meanings and develop our own notions of them within the tradition.

Any other interpretations?

Rune links;
http://www.armanen.org/

http://www.pganuszko.freeuk.com/dissertation/ring.gif
SS Ring designed by Listian runologist K.M. Wiligut.

So I see you've taken on the task yourself...

First I would like to add a proper introduction to the importance of the Amanen Futhork...



The Armanen Rune row is in no way superior to the elder/younger Futharks. What makes this system of relevance to us Aryans is the analysis of its esoteric content regardless of the age. Keeping in mind that the job of a historian is composition of scattered fragments through time, in altered forms, in order to a create a picture which shows enough clarity to provide proper understanding of this data; the historians subjectivity is revealed in the this final product as the means of filling in the gaps. These "means" are often quiet varied and depend on the nature of the

historian, philologist, scientist, mystic etc,.

Runeology has been prone to much of this speculation, and in my opinion has been misinterpreted by many. Not much thought-provoking literature has been published (with the exception of several Edred Thorson titles and a few others less known) and often like most forms of Western occultism became evidently corrupted by these "New Age" movements. Surely List possessed the intuitive powers of our ancestors which he used as tools to devise (or revise from the prior forms) the principles of Armanism. It can be argued that this system lacks historical validity in some areas yet on an esoterico-idealogical plain it is much more applicable to our cause as nationalists and promoters of re-evolution of these forgotten ideas (or at least to some).



-----------------------------



Also I would like to note List's perception on the trans-human reality in order to aid those unaware of the principles, since they are crucial for understanding any of his further interpretations.



1. the byfidic-biune dyad - The idea that matter is condensed or solidified spirit and requires a balance to be established between the two. In a purely historical sense the ignorance of this concept has lead the greatest nations to a decline and an eventual fall (being an inevitable process, it was sped up due to the lack of understanding of the above). As seen in Rome, the lack of a common spiritual understanding corrupted the socioeconomic order due the lack of a common moral code ; the downward drift in Tibets progress in anything other then spirituality after the emergence of Buddhism would be the opposite.

2. the trifidic-triune triad - "As in cosmos - so on Earth"

. This principle governs most if not all occult philosophies - the arising, being and passing away to a new arising. The concept applies to all parts of our existence and reality and can be witnessed in the stages of (1) Dynamism - force of change, alteration through time (2) Stasis - the factor of stability and order in this change; the balance in nature (3)Entropy - decay and atrophy in order to provide purpose in a constant evolution of this cyclic system. This concept is defiantly revolutionary (in the original sense of the word); borrowing from the past in order to build a brighter future.

3. the multifidic-multiune multiplicity - Finally, flowers interprets this last cosmological principle as
"A concept by which List tries to synthesize the virtually unlimited valances of manifestation in the natural/organic world into a coherent wholeness....multiplicity is reconciled in a similar way, not with "unity but rather a "wholeness" model. This allows for genuine multivalance in manifestation without necessarily having to judge one form to be superior or prior to another"

a) Runick Beyondings

Thanks for introducing Listian metaphysics, or what you call the "trans-human reality";


;
1. the byfidic-biune dyad
2. the trifidic-triune triad
3. the multifidic-multiune multiplicity

List actually links number 2. above with the first rune, FA, when he says;

http://www.terraemania.com/medieval/futhark/feoh.gif

"The root word 'Fa', which is symbolised as the 'primordial word' in this rune, is the conceptual foundation of 'arising', 'being' (doing, working, ruling), and of 'passing away to new arising' ...."
[von List ib.,]

This 'arising/being/passing-away to new arising' partakes of 2., the 'trifidic-triune triad'.
The latter formulation is a bit awkward in English and conveys only a sense of things happening in threes.
It literally means 'the split into three-three in one, set of three'.
This is an eternally recurring threefold cycle, which can be symbolised by the following 'hiero-glyphs';

http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/trifoil.gif http://www.gippeswic.demon.co.uk/valknut.gif
Trifoil, left, and the Valknut

We can quickly touch on the other two 'trans-human' realities;

1. the bifidic-biune dyad, which means 'the split into two-two in one, set of two'.
List relates this to the relation between spirit and matter, as you say, but also that between the Self and the World.
Whereas the triad is cyclic, the dyad is more linear; I think of it as a constantly fluctuating duality of energy.

http://cafe.mis.ous.ac.jp/sawami/images/SquareWave00.jpg
Square-wave.

3. the multifidic-multiune multiplicity, which means 'the split into many-many in one, manifold variety of the whole', could be related to the 'Mother Rune', i.e., that grid which contains all the basic elements of the runes and therefore the Universe;

http://www.varangiankindred.org/garrik/mother_rune_081901.gif
Version of the Mother Rune

So, the rune FA relates to the triadic trans-human reality - this is as abstract as you can get, and far away from the exoteric meaning of 'Cattle' with which it begins.

As I mentioned in the first post, IE 'p' becomes 'f' in Germanic, so the oldest known form of FA as an IE [or Aryan] root would be something like *Per-.
This Aryan root *Per- [the * indicates that the form is not attested in writiing] means 'forward, through'.

So this links in with the 'eternal return' of the triadic we have already discussed. Both von List and Kummer use the Nietzschean formula 'Eternal Return' when discussing this rune making an obvious nod to Nietzsche's cyclic cosmology.
We can link the root 'FA' to the word 'Leader' then, - 'fuhrer'.

If we turn to the alternative of FA and 'fire' we are drawn 'fasc-inatingly' to 'fascism'.

Sense of 'wild-fire' - the charging herd.
Wild fee, the deer.

Sanskrit 'pacu', cattle.

Thorsson says;

"All in all, the F-rune defines a mobile form of power".
['Futhark', Thorsson]

b) Godlings and Wights

If we think in terms of gods, then it is worth stating something straight off.
The Listian concept of divinity is that it is 'within'.
A 'god' is a being who has an extra-ordinary degree of the divine within them.

This heathenry rejects either external gods or enclosed places of worship.
The heathen commutes with the spiritual essence out in the open and recognises that the gods are within him - HE is the god-man.

Like the Bhagavad Geeta, List believes that there is an indestructible quality which is eternal and outlives all cycles of rebirth.
List says of FA;

"True wisdom lives only for the future: only the fool mourns over decay".
[List ib.,]

The Havamal has another verse which relates here;

Cattle die and kinsmen die; thyself eke soon will die.
But fair fame will fade never, I ween, for him who wins it.
One thing I wot will wither never: the doom over each one dead.
[Havamal 76-7]
('eke' means 'also'; 'wot' means 'know')

This FA rune is, as the Havamal says, a 'help'.
A Scandinavian Eddic Lay says;

"Learn help-runes eke, if help thou wilt a woman to bring forth her babe; on thy palms wear them and grasp her wrists and ask the Disir's aid".
[Sigrdrifumal 10]
('Disirs' are the 'Mothers')

Here we get an indication that the FA rune may have been marked on the hands in such situations.
Or else worn on a ring;

http://www.enchantedglyph.com/art/runering2.jpg

All the above notions tie-in at some level or other.

c) Englisc/ Scandinavian Traditions

To be complete, let us look at the treatment of what List calls the FA Rune in earlier traditions.

The Anglo-Saxons stayed close to the exoteric meaning, calling FA 'Feoh', literally cattle/ wealth.
In an Old English rune poem we find;

Feoh is a comfort to one and all.
But he must share it who hopes to cast
His lot before his lord.
[OE Rune Poem, first verse]

We have there the idea of 'help', and also the notion of casting lots - which as Tacitus tells us - was a runic function amongst pagan Germans some 2,000 years ago.

An Old English fragment says;

"Cattle (feoh) on the Earth shall bring forth and teem".

The Old Norse and Icelandic sources use FA to mean 'gold';

Fe [gold] causes strife among kinsmen.
The wolf grows up in the woods.
[Old Norse Rune Poem]

Here is a typical admonition against materialism, found too amongst the Icelanders;

Fe [gold] is the strife of kinsmen,
And the fire of the flood-tide,
And the path of the serpent.
[Old Icelandic Rune Poem]

d) Back to List

So we see a fairly consistent run of meaning here across thousands of years, distilled in Guido von List's rune-lore, which says;

http://www.uponreflection.co.uk/runeworld/rune_img/1cfreyaseight.gif
FA: To Help.

Reference source.

I want to get back to an Indo-European [IE] or rather, Aryan, root for each of von List's runes.

Ideally I'd like to be able to link each one to a root in the following work;

http://www.bartleby.com/61/IEroots.html
IE Roots

I have achieved that with quite a few, taking into account the usually accepted rune meanings.

This is a work in progress.

Aryan Roots for von List's Rune row

1.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/fa.gif
FA

*'Peku-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE383.html


2.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/ur.gif
UR

'Uks-en-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE543.html


3.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/thorn.gif
THORN

'(s)Tena-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE501.html


4.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/os.gif
OS

'Ansu-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE19.html


5.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/rit.gif
RIT

'Reidh-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE429.html


6.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/ka.gif
KA

'kenk' to burn (?)

'Kent-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE221.html
Doubtful - needs research


7.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/hagal.gif
HAGAL

'Kaghlo'; pebble, hail (?)


8.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/nod.gif
NOD

'*Nau-'; death, to be exhausted (?)


9.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/is.gif
IS

'*Isa-'[Proto-Germanic]; ice
[Aryan root?]


10.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/ar.gif
AR

*Jer-, jar-, jor- (?)


11.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/sig.gif
SIG

Sawel-
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE442.html


12.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/tyr.gif
TYR

Dyeu-
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE117.html


13.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/bar.gif
BAR

Bherag-
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE57.html


14.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/laf.gif
LAF

*'Lak-' cf.,;
Laks-
http://bartleby.com/61/roots/IE262.html


15.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/man.gif
[b]MAN

'Man-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE295.html


16.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/yr.gif
YR

*'Ei-wo-'


17.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/eh.gif
EH

'Ekwo-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE124.html


18.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/gibor.gif
GIBOR

'Ghabh-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE151.html

http://www.armanen.co.uk/images/chart.gif
Armanen Runes

The Holy Twelve

In looking for the Aryan Roots above, I have noticed that twelve of von List's Rune row have definite Aryan Roots.

This means that those particular Runes could possibly pre-date the Aryan migrations.

So I suggest that the Aryas, when in their Homeland, used a sacred 12 Rune Row ['The Holy Twelve'] which was later expanded by the Western branch of the Aryans to 16, 18 and 24 Runes.

Indeed, that the Teutons settled on 24 Runes, which is merely a doubling of the original 12, tends to support my thesis.

It is very significant that the Aryan Root words of the Holy Twelve are absolutely essential to the Runes and to Aryan spirituality itself.

I give this primal rune row below with its Aryan rune names;

The Holy Twelve Stave names:

1] PEKU- 2] UKSEN- 3] (s)TENA- 4] ANSU- 5] REIDH- 6] SAWEL-

7] DYEU- 8] BHERAG- 9] LAKS- 10] MAN- 11] EKWO- 12] GHABH-

Having established my basic 12 Runes of the Aryas, I shall next look at the meanings in a subsequent post.

I have already looked at the first rune in the first post of this thread.

However, there I looked at it from the Listian perspective, rather than that of the Aryan root form, which is;


PEKU-

This root means 'wealth', 'movable property'; so we see that meaning has not changed from the earliest Aryas to the Anglo-Saxons.

Latin gives us 'pecuinia', meaning property and wealth, from which we get words such as pecuniary, impecunious etc.,

This derives from the Latin 'pecus', meaning cattle [obviously wealth was counted in such things as live-stock, rather than in coins at the earliest stages of civilisation].

To the Anglo-Saxons it was 'Feoh', meaning cattle, goods, money, which gives us the words 'fee', 'fief' etc.,

The Germanic parallel is that of *Fehu, from which we get the word 'feudal'.

To the Norse the word for the rune was 'Fe', which in Old Norse meant 'property', 'cattle'. It also gives us the word 'fellow' as in 'fellowship'.

So we see an excellent example here of the common Aryan tongue providing the Indo-Aryan and the Euro-Aryan branches with exactly the same concept.

And this is eternalised in the Runes.

The Runes are the great link with our Aryan past.

I think of it also as the 'Fuhrer Rune' [Leader Rune]; indeed, the Norse rune poem adds this line to describe the 'Fe' rune;

'Leader of the War-band'.

To List this is the 'primordial word' - so it is fitting that it begineth the Futharkh.

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/his/CoreArt/art/resourcesb/dav_oath_2.jpg

In the above picture by David, we see that the Roman Salute is merely an expression of the FA Rune, hence my calling it the Fuhrer Rune.

Let us now go on to the second of our 'Holy Twelve' Runes.

It is the rune which von List calls 'Ur', and is derived from the Indo-European root 'uksen';


UKSEN-

This 'uksen' reminds us of the word 'oxen', as it should. The Aryan word 'Uksen-' pertains to the 'Bull', the 'Ox'.
From this we get the Germanic *'uhson-', which gives us;

a) 'Ox', from Old English 'oxa', 'ox', and,

b) 'Aurochs', from Old High German 'ohso', and ox.

The 'aurochs' is a now extinct beast, and the rune's shape may alude to the horns of this animal.

http://www.fancherloveranch.com/optpix/left-aurochs.jpg
Image of the aurochs from the prehistoric cave art of Lascaux

As with the first rune, we are here at a very 'primal' level of significance in terms of Aryan culture.
The symbolism of the Bull is vital; let us look at it in detail as it occurs in a few Aryan civilisations.

BULL:

Scandinavian: Attribute of Thor and sacred to Freyja ...

Mithraism: The Solar God; the bull sacrifice was the central ceremony in Mithraism. It also represented victory over man's animal nature and life through death.
The bull and lion together symbolise death.

http://www.bartleby.com/86/3601.gif
Mithras slaying the Bull

Celtic: Bull gods are divine power and strength. With the druids the bull is the sun and the cow the earth.

Roman: Attribute of Jupiter as sky god; sacrificed to Mars; attribute of Venus and Europa as moon deities; Europa as the dawn is carried across the sky by the solar bull.

http://www.visart.uga.edu/courses/arhi4030/slides/roman_imperial/pix_med/rom-furn-att-eur_md.jpg
Europa on the Solar Bull [Roman]

Greek: Attribute of Zeus as sky god, also of Dionysos who was horned and sometimes bull-headed when manifesting as the male principle...

Minoan: The Great God; the bull was sacrificed to the earth and earthquake god ... In Crete he appears to represent the reproductive forces of Nature.

http://www.ea.pvt.k12.pa.us/htm/Units/Upper/arts/a/history/art_hist_0203/minoan_pics/bull_vault.jpg
Minoan mural of 'bull-vaulting' rite.

Hittite: Teshub, the Sun God, takes the form of a bull.

Iranian: The Soul of the World; its generative power is associated with moon and rain clouds in fertility.
The bull was the first created animal and was slain by Ahriman; from the soul of the bull came the germ of all future creation.

Hindu: Strength; speed; fertility; the reproductive power of nature. The bull Nandin is a vehicle of Shiva, guardian of the west, who rides a bull.
It is an attribute of Agni, 'the mighty bull', and a form of Indra in his fertile aspect.
The bull is also the vital breath of Aditi, the all-embracing.
The power conferred by Soma is frequently equated with that of the bull.
Rudra unites with the cow-goddess.

http://www.goloka.com/graphics/gallery/siva-ganesh/02siva/047-gauri-shiva.jpg
Shiva and Parvati on Nandin

This serves as an introduction on the importance of the Bull, or Uksen, to the Aryan culture. We will next look at the Rune Ur in this context.

AryanKrieger
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 07:56 PM
Fa
Sound: "f"
Stands for: Primal Fire
Casting meaning: Symbolically this rune represents the power of spirit and change as well as the power of creativity.

Ur
Sound: "u"
Stands for: Resurrection
Casting meaning: Ur is a physician's rune and represents resurrection, eternity, and continuity.

Dorn
Sound: "th"
Stands for: Lightning and Thunder
Casting meaning: The rune represents the thunderbolt, but symbolically it stands for targeting goals, activity and the phallus.

Os
Sound: "o" as in "cold"
Stands for: Mouth
Casting meaning: Os represents the spiritual power that is gained through speech. It is the breath of the world, its voice. It also signifies the strength that a person needs to rise up in power.

Rit
Sound: "r"
Stands for: Ritual (or Primal Laws)
Casting meaning: This rune represents the orderliness in the world, the ritual, primal law and things that are done correctly. It also stands for cynical events and rescue from an enemy.

Ka
Sound: "k"
Stands for: World Tree
Casting meaning: List's version of this rune was simply for it to represent the world tree. However more modern versions of this rune say that it stands for power, generation, ability and artfulness.

Hagal
Sound: "h"
Stands for: Hail (not positive)
Casting meaning: Due to its shape Hagal is sometimes called the Mother rune and is said that all other runes derive from its shape. It is a rune of enclosure but contains a potential for growth.

Not
Sound: "n"
Stands for: Necessity of fate
Casting meaning: This rune can be taken as the same idea as the Hindu concept of karma. What is done in this lifetime will determine our future existence.

Is
Sound: "i" as in "piece"
Stands for: Ego
Casting meaning: Just like our ego, this rune is one that is used to control ourselves. It represents the personal power of control, obedience and our compelling will.

Ar
Sound: "a" as in "aah"
Stands for: Leadership
Casting meaning: Modern meanings of this rune are of beauty, fame, intelligence and virtue. List's version of this rune has it representing sunlight that washes away darkness as well as having it denote nobility and leadership.

Sig
Sound: "s"
Stands for: Sun Power
Casting meaning: Like Ar this rune represents the power of the sun. The difference is that Sig is the power of the sun whereas Ar is the power that the light of the sun contains. It is also a rune of success and victory.

Tyr
Sound: "t"
Stands for: Rebirth of the Sun God
Casting meaning: Tyr is a rune that has the power to make situations turn completely around. A rune of wisdom, spiritual understanding, and the power of generation.

Bar
Sound: "b"
Stands for: Birth
Casting meaning: This rune represents birth, but in a sense of the birth of the future life that is preordained for us. Modern versions of this rune say it stands for the power of becoming as well as the power of creativity found in song. /TD>

Laf
Sound: "l"
Stands for: rlog (Primal Law)
Casting meaning: List said this rune stood for the concepts of defeat and the laws of nature. Today modern versions have this rune denoting life, water and primal law.

Man
Sound: "m"
Stands for: Man (as in human, not gender)
Casting meaning: The second mother rune of this set, Man was used in Armanen tradition to represent birth. Modern versions say it stands for health, increase, maleness and man (gender this time).

Yr
Sound: "y" as in "tiny"
Stands for: Bow (or Rainbow)
Casting meaning: Modern interpreters see this as a female rune, the night, death and instinct. List said it denoted anger, falsehood, error and the oppositions found in man (as in human not gender).

Eh
Sound: "e" as in "every"
Stands for: Duality (or possibly even Horse)
Casting meaning: The rune Eh is said to symbolize duality where a pair is bound by primal law, love, trust and marriage.

Gibor
Sound: "g"
Stands for: Gift of life
Casting meaning: This rune represents the giver of life and both the giver and the gift of life itself. It is also the cosmic consciousness and the divine principle.

Blutwlfin
Wednesday, August 17th, 2005, 01:01 PM
The Armanen Runes (http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/runes.htm)

Gorm the Old
Wednesday, August 24th, 2005, 02:36 AM
There is nothing authentically Nordic or Germanic about the Armanen Runes. They are nothing but figments of Guido "von" List's fertile imagination. A knowledge of them contributes nothing to one's ability to interpret real runes or to use them in divination. They are as fictional as the Angerthas Moria.

Grimolf
Monday, October 3rd, 2005, 06:21 PM
There is nothing authentically Nordic or Germanic about the Armanen Runes. They are nothing but figments of Guido "von" List's fertile imagination. A knowledge of them contributes nothing to one's ability to interpret real runes or to use them in divination. They are as fictional as the Angerthas Moria.

Maybe you note The Armanen Futharkh: A Controversial Rune Row? (http://geocities.com/odinistlibrary/OLArticles/Articles/armanencontroversial.htm) before making this belief.

Also, very good yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Armanen/

Sigurd
Monday, January 30th, 2006, 11:03 PM
This has nothing to do with real, historical, Germanic Runes.

Wasn't it like assumed that since it was 18 charms in the Havamal, so that they added like two on top of the 16 of the Norwegian one, wasnt it?

Blutwlfin
Monday, January 30th, 2006, 11:16 PM
Wasn't it like assumed that since it was 18 charms in the Havamal, so that they added like two on top of the 16 of the Norwegian one, wasnt it?

And they said that the Younger Fuark was the original one while the Elder Fuark was "invented" by some historians who just added some more runes to make it look more "serious".

IvyLeaguer
Tuesday, January 31st, 2006, 01:38 AM
The Runes on this website are mostly Armanen Runes. And Armanen Runes were invented by Wiligut (he "saw" them during a trance :speechles )and lack every evidence. This has nothing to do with real, historical, Germanic Runes.

BW, what is the difference between K.M. Wiligut's Armanen runic system and Guido von List's 16 rune casting method? It sounds similar. Is it in fact the same? I read v. List's book, so I'm pretty clear with his, but what Weisthor was up to is still somewhat of a mystery to me. There really isn't just a whole bunch of info. out there on this person. I've traveled to Wewelsburg twice, the last time I went a couple years ago and stayed for 4 weeks there. I went daily to the museum and spoke with the curator and some of the staff, but there were usually only speculations on this individual and what he believed, whatever that actually was. It all sounds like a Jungian collective unconscious thing going on there. It seems like everything this man worked for, invented, concluded, came from his visions, i.e. the "collective unconscious."

Blutwlfin
Tuesday, January 31st, 2006, 10:18 AM
I think both got inspired by each other and used the same runes. I'm not a specialist in this topic since I stopped reading about it when I came across the first two weird explanations of the origin of runes and Adolf Lanz' (von Liebenfels) history tales.

What i know about Wiligut is that he was kind of "Rasputin" for Himmler. He claimed to descent from a long line of ancient wise men from the tribe of the Uiligotis. He dated there origin in a prehistorical time. Wiligut claimed to have all his knowledge from a "shared consciousness" with his ancestors, which allowed him to travel more than 4.000 years back in time. All he knew about Runes his grandfather Karl Wiligut taught him, he said.

Wiligut also said that the Bible was written by Germanics. He believed in a "Irminen"-religion which differed from the "Wuotan"-religion by worshiping a germanic god called "Krist", which later was abused by Christianity to form a new religion.

The contents of the "Irminenreligion" are not really clear, but it seems to be a complete transformation of Christianity and its values to Germanic based history and culture. Wiligut said that the "Irminenreligion" was founded 228.000 years b.C. (a time, where there were three suns shining down to the earth, which again was populated by dwarfs, giants and other mythical creatures).

In 1.200 b.C. the Wotanists destroyed the holy temple of the Irminists in Goslar, Germany, and they had to build a new one at the Externsteine. Again the temple was conquered by Wotanists in 460 and finally destroyed by Charlemagne.

Wiligut's ancestors played important roles throughout the whole history of the Irminists. The "Wiligotis", so their former name, were Ueiskunings (ice kings), which descended from the aggregation (“Vereinigung”) between the sir and the Vanir. They also founded the city of Vilna which once was the capital of the great Gothic empire. At least this is what Wiligut claimed…

In 1924 Wiligut was diagnosed to be schizophrenic and was brought to the lunatic asylum in Salzburg. He was released in 1931, but stayed partial under disability. One year later he went to Germany and settled in Munich. An old friend introduced him to Himmler and finally became officer of the SS in ’33. He became the head of the Department of Pre- and Protohistory. His job was writing down his collective memories.

In 1939 he left the SS (no one really knows why but it was probably due to mental derangement.

Blutwlfin
Tuesday, January 31st, 2006, 03:05 PM
If you want to read some of Wiligut's works, here you are (in German)

Karl Maria Wiligut - Gotos - Kalanda (http://www.sonnenwacht.de/Neu/dokumente/gotos.zip)

Karl Maria Wiligut - Flod Emanation im Weltall (http://www.sonnenwacht.de/Neu/dokumente/flod.zip)

Karl Maria Wiligut - Die neun Gebote Gots (http://www.sonnenwacht.de/Neu/dokumente/NeunGebote.zip)

Karl Maria Wiligut - Die 30 Anrufungen Gots (http://www.sonnenwacht.de/Neu/dokumente/30Anrufungen.zip)

Kalevi
Tuesday, January 31st, 2006, 03:35 PM
LOL, seems like one of those people with a lively and creative imagination (http://www.bocksaga.com/). Too bad my German is awful, I'd love to read something by him.

But again about the runes: My own knowledge of them is next to nothing, but I've heard some claims of this "rune mysticism" stuff being pure new age and national romanticism without any historical, scientific basis. I mean, is there even any concrete piece of historical evidence supporting the claim that the ancient Scandinavians had also other meanings or practices for runes than just alphabet?

No offence to anyone or their religion, I'm just being sceptical as usual.

Blutwlfin
Tuesday, January 31st, 2006, 03:48 PM
Well, the name says it, Kalevi:
The term "Rune" was used for "letter" as well as for "secret"; so you can be quite sure that there's also another meaning behind all this than just e.g. the sound "a" for example. Further more special Runes, like Algiz or Fehu, were used in talismans and protecting symbols, e.g. in the gishjalmur or Bindrunes - and it would be quite weird if people would have thought of the letter "f" or "z" to have magical powers. ;)

Of course a lot of these modern interpretations are quite weird; if you want to find out about the old meaning you should look back in the past and look at old symbols, talismans and jewellery instead of looking into books made by Bluhm and Thorsson. :P

Kalevi
Tuesday, January 31st, 2006, 04:35 PM
Ok, thanks. This seems to be a rather messy subject, with all the romanticism and new age ambitions from the 19th century to this day. When reading an article about runes, one can not but wonder whose theories is this knowledge based on or is there any other ways to interpret what is being said in a saga etc. And linguistics, and to some extent archaeology too, is a whole another field where there is always at least some controversy.

But yes, people were quite religious back then and I think it's relatively safe to assume that they didn't just write meaningless junk in their talismans.

IvyLeaguer
Tuesday, January 31st, 2006, 04:50 PM
Well, the name says it, Kalevi:
The term "Rune" was used for "letter" as well as for "secret"; so you can be quite sure that there's also another meaning behind all this than just e.g. the sound "a" for example. Further more special Runes, like Algiz or Fehu, were used in talismans and protecting symbols, e.g. in the gishjalmur or Bindrunes - and it would be quite weird if people would have thought of the letter "f" or "z" to have magical powers. ;)

Of course a lot of these modern interpretations are quite weird; if you want to find out about the old meaning you should look back in the past and look at old symbols, talismans and jewellery instead of looking into books made by Bluhm and Thorsson. :P

BW, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. It is extremely impressive. I hope you are in a field where you can use that expertise.

I will try to get those books via inter-library loan. We have copies of this stuff stuck in university libraries here--believe it or not--most of it was stolen from German libraries and then brought over, then left in the stacks section of numerous university libraries after the original "thief" book owners passed away or donated them. That was how I got my hands on Otto Rahn's books. My German friends who have studied here are always fascinated with what you can so readily get your hands on over here, since most of these publications would be illegal to possess in Germany.

Unfortunately, our government here keeps tabs on what you check out from the library. I know this for sure because for years now I have been under some type of surveillance and I have done nothing other than check out books. I've spend a large portion of my adult life in grad school. I don't vote, and am not affiliated with any political org. I've never committed a crime and had never publically protested anything. There would be no reason to do this to me at all.

A few years ago, I would have never even joined a public internet forum like this one, but since I know that "they" are keeping tabs on me anyway, I just don't care any longer. I noticed this "surveillance" garbage every single time I boarded an airplane. I was always the random person to be checked. It didn't matter if the flight was domestic or international, if it had 50 people or 500, I was always the person singled out and then thoroughly checked. My bags are almost always detained and I usually don't get them back until several days later. Once a ticket checkout person felt sorry for me and told me that I was on some type of FBI list because when my name came up on her screen, there was something that indicated I was "special." If I have to fly anywhere now, I prepare a large carry-on purse to put my toothbrush and extra drawers in so I won't have to wear the same pair for 3 days or go around with bad breath. Anyway, it gets irritating sometimes to say the least. Alas, the joys of living in the land of freedom and democracy.

Kalevi (Isn't that a brand name of some Swedish caviar or pate or something? I think I remember that from my time abroad. Is it Finnish for something or just a neat name?), there actually are historical accounts of the Germanic tribes using the runes for magical purposes, such as denoting future events and predictions. They are found in the writings of the Roman-Tacitus. Many of his accounts are derogatory, or his accounts completely misunderstand or misinterpret what he had witnessed, but these are the earliest accounts written by an outsider about the Germanic tribes, and nonetheless, they do give an interpretation and perspective on what the daily life of the Germanic peoples was like. Unfortunately, because this is practically the earliest observation we now have, what he wrote is sometimes all scholars have to go by, as far as a thorough written account. We of course also have the original oral traditions and Skaldic literature which was later written down for all to enjoy. There is plenty of evidence out there that the runes were used for this purpose too. It's just that today we have become so rational, perhaps too rational. I think this is within each of us, we just have to rediscover it and find it again.

Kalevi
Wednesday, February 1st, 2006, 01:45 AM
I know this for sure because for years now I have been under some type of surveillance and I have done nothing other than check out books.

:speechles


Kalevi (Isn't that a brand name of some Swedish caviar or pate or something? I think I remember that from my time abroad. Is it Finnish for something or just a neat name?)

:rofl:
I doubt that, but at least here they sell a product called "Kalle's caviar paste" or something. Kalevi is an ordinary Finnish first name. I just pulled it out the hat for having nothing to do with my real name or my other net aliases.


there actually are historical accounts of the Germanic tribes using the runes for magical purposes, such as denoting future events and predictions. They are found in the writings of the Roman-Tacitus. Many of his accounts are derogatory, or his accounts completely misunderstand or misinterpret what he had witnessed, but these are the earliest accounts written by an outsider about the Germanic tribes, and nonetheless, they do give an interpretation and perspective on what the daily life of the Germanic peoples was like. Unfortunately, because this is practically the earliest observation we now have, what he wrote is sometimes all scholars have to go by, as far as a thorough written account. We of course also have the original oral traditions and Skaldic literature which was later written down for all to enjoy. There is plenty of evidence out there that the runes were used for this purpose too.

Thanks. Haven't read any of those very intensively.

IvyLeaguer
Wednesday, February 1st, 2006, 02:10 AM
Kalevi and Kalle.............. I know about the Kalle brand, but isn't there a Kalevi something too?

Blutwlfin
Sunday, July 9th, 2006, 06:07 PM
As an addition to this topic:

The Armanen Runes lack every kind of evidence and are no real Runes, but invented ones, resp. changed Scandinavian Runes.

Moody
Monday, July 10th, 2006, 12:53 PM
The Armanen Runes lack every kind of evidence and are no real Runes, but invented ones, resp. changed Scandinavian Runes.

I disagree with this argument.

While Guido von List [1848 - 1919] 'invented' the "Armanen Runes" over 100 years ago, he worked completely within the tradition.

Just as had the Swede Johannes Bureus in the 16th century when he too invented his 'Aldalruna' [and who influenced List].

True, both men followed closely the Viking Runes [or Younger Futhark] - which were themselves invented by the Vikings in the Viking era .

In fact, the Viking 'invention' was far more radical than that of Bureus or List.

The Vikings reduced the 24 rune-stave Futhark to a [i]16 runestave Futhark!

Around the same period, the Anglo-Saxons meanwhile, had expanded the 24 up to 33 runes!
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=36742

In contrast, List only added 2 extra runes to the Viking row, which two he took from the Anglo-Saxons anyway.

So List, like Bureus, like the Vikings, and like the Anglo-Saxons before him, was working very much within the tradition; and the tradition itself always uses invention, otherwise it would never expand [or contract, as in the Viking example].

So in actual fact, all of List's runes were pre-existent in the tradition, and so were/are 'real'.
He rather invented his own 'system' firmly based on the tradition, taking the Elder Edda as the foundation for this system!

Therefore it is incorrect to say that his system "[i]lacked evidence", or that his runes "are no real Runes".

To say this suggests a misunderstanding of runology in general, and of List in particular.

What are the criteria for "real runes"?


http://www.geocities.com/reginheim/runesarmanen.gif
Armanen Runes


Various Viking Futharks for comparison with the Armanen;

http://www.runewebvitki.com/origin21.gif

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/futhark_younger.gif

http://deceptivelypackaged.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/danish_futhork_longbranch_runes.png


References only:
Armanen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanen_runes
http://www.armanen.co.uk

List;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_von_List

Bureus;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Bureus

Viking Runes;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Futhark

Elder Futhark;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark

Runes [includes info on Anglo-Saxon runes;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic

Blutwlfin
Monday, July 10th, 2006, 07:12 PM
List got his runes from his long line of ancestors.. via dreams.. . He gave nw meanings to the original runes, he formed them the way he wanted to have them.

The younger Futhark was some sort of shorthand for the old runes - the meaning of every particular rune stayed the same.

Moody
Monday, July 10th, 2006, 07:21 PM
List got his runes from his long line of ancestors.. via dreams.. . He gave nw meanings to the original runes, he formed them the way he wanted to have them.
The younger Futhark was some sort of shorthand for the old runes - the meaning of every particular rune stayed the same.

This is not true; the Younger Runes changed some of the Elder meanings quite radically - again, more radically than did List.

Likewise the Anglo-Saxons, who actually swapped some of the runes around.

Guido von List did no more and no less than did the inventors of the Viking and Anglo-Saxon runes.

Were the Viking and Anglo-Saxon runes "real"?
Of course they were - so are the Armanen.

As for dreams, List experienced runic inspiration when he had an eye operation and lost his sight for a short while.
This he related to Wotan who removed an eye to gain the wisdom of Mimir.

So List was always inspired by the runic and Eddaic traditions, and stayed faithful to them.

His Armanen rune meanings were based on the 18 songs of Odin's Rune List in the Elder Edda!

Odin's Quest after the Runes [the runes start at 'The Song of Spells', verses 145 - 164];
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html#runes

Earlier thread;
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=45794

General Rune Info;
http://www.arild-hauge.com/eindex.htm

Spjabork
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 05:09 AM
The younger Futhark was some sort of shorthand for the old runes - the meaning of every particular rune stayed the same.I can't conceive the younger Futhark otherwise than as a sort of reduction. And in fact it's difficult to explain it in another way.

When 16 runes "retained" their full meaning, the meaning of the 8 lost runes also was lost.

Blutwlfin
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 06:11 AM
I can't conceive the younger Futhark otherwise than as a sort of reduction. And in fact it's difficult to explain it in another way.

When 16 runes "retained" their full meaning, the meaning of the 8 lost runes also was lost.


The runes, that remained, kept their meaning. Is this so hard to understand?

Spjabork
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 09:44 AM
The runes, that remained, kept their meaning. Is this so hard to understand?It isn't hard to understand. I said it was a reduction. A reduction always keeps a smaller rest something that has been bigger, "fuller" before.

Moody
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 12:50 PM
I can't conceive the younger Futhark otherwise than as a sort of reduction. And in fact it's difficult to explain it in another way.
When 16 runes "retained" their full meaning, the meaning of the 8 lost runes also was lost.


Yes - but it is not true that the runes which were 'retained' remained unaltered, they did not.

Some meanings in the Younger Futhark were radically altered, and some stave-shapes were radically altered too!

Not only that, but the various Younger Futharks disagreed amongst themselves! on these things.

An obvious example occurs with the second rune in;

Uruz in the Elder Futhark relates apparently to the Aurochs, a now extinct wild ox.
In the Younger Futhark [Old Norse version] this rune is now called 'Ur', and has the meaning of 'slag', or 'dross'.
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=35950

A completely different meaning to the Elder by any stretch of the imagination.

Not only that, but in the Younger Futhark of the Old Icelandics, the same rune ['Ur'] is given the meaning of 'drizzle'!
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=35949

So we see here that, while a rune-shape may remain and the sound which corresponds with it also remains, the meaning changes radically.

As for the change in shapes, the most obvious example is the Elder Futhark's 'Hagalaz', which is runed thus:

http://www.tattoosymbol.com/runes/hagalaz.jpg

Becomes the Younger Futhark's 'Hagal', which is usually runed thus:

http://www.aepalizage.com/runes//images/hagal.jpg


Same rune, different shape!

And these are just one or two examples, there are more.

So von List was working within this very tradition. If his runes aren't 'real', then neither are the Vikings'! [and who is going to have the gaul to tell the Vikings that?!]


List ... gave new meanings to the original runes, he formed them the way he wanted to have them.

On what do we base our meanings of the Runes?

In other words, what is the source of the "original runes"?

And what is the source for the "original rune meanings"?

If you could identify this, then we may be able to judge whether von List [or anyone else] had 'deviated' or not, to the extent that they made "unreal runes", as you assert.

Moody
Thursday, July 13th, 2006, 05:42 PM
I said that this was a work in progress, and I believe I have made some progress on this task;

I want to get back to an Indo-European or rather, Aryan, root for each of von List's runes.

I give a Proto-Germanic root, followed by an Aryan root

In some cases there are more than one possible root.

I also end each entry with a short list of IE roots. Some of these are different to the usual rune-name, but are connected in sound etc.,
This is valid because we know that often an archaic rune sound would be given completely different meanings depending on what word it was nearest to in the language at the time.
[i]This also relates to the Germanic tendency towards alliteration in poetry.
Therefore a whole series of root words could be attached to an initial rune; Guido von List does this quite often [he calls it 'Kala'], and it may be heard in the archaic rhyme 'fe-fi-fo-fum'.

Bearing in mind the various sound-shifts that occurred between Proto-IE and Proto-Germanic [the most obvious being PIE 'p' to Germanic 'f' - and that shift is significant as the Futhark starts on 'f' and always maintains this unique order], it started to become clear to me that von List's 18 runes were very close to the basic sounds of PIE.

The basic 18 sounds of PIE;

/a/e/o/H/u/y/(i)/m/n/l/r/s/p/t/k/b/d/g/

Correspond to the 18 rune Armanen (indicating sound-shifts);

/p (Ger [i]f)/(u)/dh (Ger. th)/o/r/(PIE g)k/H(or PIE k to h)/n/(i)/a/s/t (PIE d)/b (PIE bh)/l/m/y/e/g (PIE gh)/

I believe that the following list provides a good foundation for deep Runework.

Aryo-Germanic Roots for von List's Rune row;


1.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/fa.gif
FA

Proto-Germanic: Fehu, cattle.

Aryan or IE (Indo-European): Peku, cattle

Proto-Indo-European [PIE] roots;
Peku; (small) cattle,
Plew; float
Pet; fly, fall foot
PHter; father
Porko; piglet


2.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/ur.gif
UR

Proto-Ger: uhson-, ox

IE: Uks-en, bull, ox
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE543.html

PIE root;
Ut'-r; water, wet


3.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/thorn.gif
THORN

PGer: Thunaraz, thunder

IE;' (s)Tena-', to thunder

PIE roots;
Dwer; door
Dheh; do, deed


4.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/os.gif
OS

PGer; Ansu-, deity

IE; Ansu-, spirit, demon

PIE root;
Owi; sheep (ewe)


5.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/rit.gif
RIT

PGer: Riden, ride

IE; 'Reidh-, to ride

PIE roots;
(H)Reud, red
(H)Reg, direct, straighten


6.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/ka.gif
KA

Ger; 'kenk' to burn (?)

PGer: Kunjan; family, race, kind, nature

IE; Gen-, to produce

PIE roots;
Gen-H; come into being, beget
Gen-H-es; clan, kin, kind
Gen-oH-; know, recognise
Gen-u; knee


7.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/hagal.gif
HAGAL

PGer: Hagalaz; hail

IE: 'Kaghlo'; pebble, hail

PIE roots;
Hed; eat
Hap; waters, stream
Howi; sheep, ewe
KrewH; raw
Kwon; dog


8.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/nod.gif
NOD

PGer: Naudhiz; need

IE; Kn-, to press, contract, push, kneed, bind

PIE roots;
Nod-, Ned-; to bind, to tie
Nem; distribute
Nas; nose


9.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/is.gif
IS

PGer: Isa-, ice

IE: Eis, ice, frost

IE root;
Is-(a)ro; powerful, holy


10.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/ar.gif
AR

PGer: Jaeran, year

IE: Jer-, Jor-, year

PGer: Ar-, eagle

IE: Er-, Or-, great bird, eagle

IE; Aryo-, Aryan

PIE roots;
Ar; fitting, appropriate
(H)Ant; forehead, before
(H)Ap; waters, stream
(H)ArHtrom; plow [plough]
(H)Aus; dawn
(H)Ayu; eternity, ever


11.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/sig.gif
SIG

PGer: Sowilo, sun

IE: Sawel-, the sun

PIE roots;
Sel; salt
Swep; sleep
SteH; stand
Syu; bind, sew



12.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/tyr.gif
TYR

PGer: Tiwaz, god

IE: Dyeu-, to shine [sky/heaven god]

PIE roots;
Tyew; (bright) sky, god
Tekm; ten
Tem; build
Terk; look, see


13.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/bar.gif
BAR

PGer: Berhtaz; bright

IE; Bherag-, to shine, bright, white (birch)

PIE roots;
Ber; bear, carry
Bew; be, exist
Bend; bend



14.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/laf.gif
LAF

PGer: Laguz, a body of water

IE: Laku, water

PGer: Lahsaz, salmon

IE: Laks-, salmon

PGer: Lauka-, leek, onion, garlic

PIE roots;
Lokso; salmonoid fish
Leuk; give light, shine
Lewb; love, care


15.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/man.gif
MAN

PGer: Manna, man

IE: Man, man
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE295.html

PIE roots;
MeHter; mother (mankind)
Mel; mill, crush, grind
Medhu; mead


16.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/yr.gif
YR

PGer: Eihwaz, yew tree

IE: Ei-wo-, yew

Ger: Irr, error
Gothic: Irre, confused, crazy

IE; Ers-, to be in motion

PIE root;
Yekr; liver


17.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/eh.gif
EH

PGer: Ehwaz, horse

IE: 'Ekwo-, horse

PIE roots;
Ed; eat
Ei; go
Es; be
Er; arise, stir


18.
http://www.scn.org/anon/dossiers/armanic/gibor.gif
GIBOR

PGer: Gebhan, to give

IE: Ghabh-, to give or recieve

PIE roots;
Gews; pour
Gerd; yard, enclosure
Gans; goose

Arrian
Monday, July 17th, 2006, 08:03 PM
3.

THORN

'(s)Tena-'
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE501.html


"A thunder god, possibly associated with the oak, and in some traditions syncretized with Dyeus. A name *Perkwunos root *per-kw- or *per-g- is suggested by Balto-Slavic *Perknos, Norse Fjrgyn, Albanian Perndi, Old Icelandic Fjorgyn (not quite a god, but a goddess - the mother of the thunder god Tor) and Vedic Parjanya. An onomatopoeic root *tar is continued in Gaulish Taranis and Hittite Tarhunt. A word for "thunder" itself was *(s)tene-, continued in Germanic *unraz (thunder personified), and became Thor.
Oak was always symbol of the thunder god in Indo-European languages. The thunder god, naturally, lived somewhere higher than people - on the top of the mountain (like on the Olympus in Greece), or on the rock, or on the top of the highest tree - an oak. The very stem *perk- denoted something like that, which is confirmed by some cognates within the family: Latin quercus < *perkos 'oak', Gothic fairguni 'rock', Hittite peruna- 'rock', Old Indic parvata- 'mountain'.

Different myths tell the same: the god of thunder fights with the evil god, the ruler of the underground world, the King of the dead. The name of this anti-god appears to be common Indo-European: the root *wel- is the most frequent:

Old Russian Veles, Volos, Vles (the cattle god)
Lithuanian Velnias, Vielona
Latvian Velns, Vels
Old Indic Vala (a daemon who steals cattle) and Vrtra - the main enemy of Indra


"This name descends to pro-Indo-European -perk- or -tar- and means 'thunder'. Probably the God of Thunder was a protector of professional warriors who replaced tribal collective during period of great Indo-European campaign (2 thousand b. c.).
The important plot connected with the God of Thunder is a battle against the Serpent: Thor and Jormungand , Indra and Vritra , Tarhunt and Illuyanka or against giants. There the god of Thunder is defender of world against the powers of chaos. Other significant plot is opposite between the God of Thunder and the God of Earth Powers (latter can is replaced by the Cultural Hero in this opposite). The reasons of this collisy can be various. At first we see opposite between thundercloud and earth. At second it can be ancient subject of torment bull by lion. At third there was a conflict between tribal aristocrats (they venerated the God of Thunder) and the priests (they devoted to the God of Earth Powers). Possibly, there was choice for different way of development. For instance: the Celts and the Romans. When druids became super power, they devoted to Cernunnos/Esus and lived in irrational magic world. As to the Romans, that they promoted to first place Jupiter (who was the god of Sky but merged with the God of Thunder) and created strong warrior-political system. Compromise between mystic and rationalism was not available. It is not surprising that one of point of religious reform by professional priest Zaratustra was overthrow of the God of Thunder."
http://ccc.domaindlx.com/myths/EMPIRE1.htm


This polarity between Thor and the Underworld, is recorded by Guido von List also:
"This threatening sign surely dwells the opposing weapon of the one going to his death, as well as the force of the powers of death, through a constant renewal of life in rebirth."

The Rune itself is hence referred as the "Thorn of Death".

Mjolnir hints at this.- "The part of the gun which fires a bullet is the falling of the Hammer."

Thunor: http://www.ealdriht.org/thunor.html

Mjolnir: http://www.mackaos.com.au/Articles/Mjol.html

Thor's Names and Kennings:
http://home.earthlink.net/~asatru/thor/thorsnames.html (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Easatru/thor/thorsnames.html)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Eunraz#Other_names
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Thor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Thorburn)

Thunder Gods in general:
http://www.maverickscience.com/Myth/Thundergods/thundergods.html

Thorn also related to the word Spine:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spine

Moody
Tuesday, July 18th, 2006, 01:39 PM
3.

THORN

Let's look at what the various Runes Poems say, and any added material from the Eddas, Old English etc.,


The Old English Rune Poem has;

Thorn is most sharp, an evil thing
To take a grip on, extremely grim
For any man who rests among them.

Here we have the meaning, not of 'thunder', but of 'thorn' [as in a plant or tree], meaning [figuratively], 'a pain-causing thing'.


Old English 'thorn', 'sharp point on a stem or branch, earlier 'thorny tree or plant', from Germanic *thurnuz, from Proto-Indo-European *trnus, from *(s)ter-n-, 'thorny plant', from base *ster-, 'stiff'.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE502.html
Figurative sense of 'anything which causes pain' is recorded from c. 1230.
Also an Old English runic letter ...
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=thorn&searchmode=none

Guido von List [as you say above] relates this to;

"The thorn of death is that which Wotan put the disobedient Valkyrie Brunhild into a death-sleep.
But it is also the 'Thorn of Life' (phallus) with which death is conquered by rebirth".
[GV List, The Secret of the Runes].

"When Odin heard of this, he was more angry still; and he sent to Isenstein, and caused Brunhild to be stung with the thorn of sleep
[The Story of Siegfried; Brunhild];
http://www.heithni.org/siegfried/027.php


In the Eddas, we have;

"A thurs rune for thee & three more I scratch!
Letchery, loathing & death"!
['Skirnismal', 36]

List was certainly right when he connected the thorn with both sex & death!


Elsewhere, we see that the rune Thurisaz , could also be linked to the giants called [i]Thurses.


In the Old English poetry we find;

Thyrs shall dwell in the land.
[Gnomic Poetry]


The Scandinavian Rune poems both agree here;

"Thurs causes the woe of women,
Few are cheerful from misfortune".
[Old Norse Rune Poem]

"Thurs is the woe of women,
And a dweller in the rocks.
And husband of the Etin-wife Vardh-Runar.
Saturn.
'Ruler of the Legal Assembly'."
[Old Icelandic Rune Poem]

But even here we sense a connection between that and the death-thorn.

So these are alternatives [or polarities, as you say] to 'thunder' for this rune-stave.
http://www.runes.contactbox.co.uk/thorn_small.jpg

Moody
Tuesday, July 18th, 2006, 06:11 PM
3.
THORN
"A thunder god, possibly associated with the oak ...
Oak was always symbol of the thunder god in Indo-European languages. The thunder god, naturally, lived somewhere higher than people - ... on the top of the highest tree - an oak. The very stem *perk- denoted something like that, which is confirmed by some cognates within the family: Latin quercus < *perkos 'oak'

Oak;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak

Interesting that the Anglo-Saxon Runes added another Rune which was named 'Oak';

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/runes/anglo/fehu_crk.gif

The Anglo-Saxon Rune-Poem says for this rune-stave;

1.Ac byth on eorthan elda bearnum
[Oak is for the sons of men on earth]
2.Flaeces fodor fereth gelome
[A feeder of flesh, often travels]
3.Ofer ganotes baeth garsecg fandath
[Over gannet's bath, the spear-sharp sea tests]
4.Hwaether ac haebbe aethele treowe
[Whether the oak has noble timber].

Line 2 is said to refer to the fact that acorns were pig's fodder.
Line 3 has the kenning "gannet's bath", which also occurs in Beowulf. Preminger glosses it as 'a shoreward salt-water area where the sea-fowl fishes, sports & bathes'.
Obviously the last two lines of the verse seem to refer to a ship built of oak.

Arrian
Tuesday, July 18th, 2006, 08:04 PM
Th-UR-IS-AZ

http://www.mooseyscountrygarden.com/rose-picture-gallery/rose-thorn.jpg
http://www.mooseyscountrygarden.com/spanish-gardens/red-rose-thorn.jpg
http://www.mooseyscountrygarden.com/garden-journal-00/garden-rose-thorn.jpg



"This is the troll-rune as used in the Norse poem For Scirnis or Skirnir's Ride. It has the power when employed in a sequence of three to alter the meanings of succeeding runes. Its use was said to evoke demons from the underworld, and it was also known as 'Hrungnir's heart', after the legend recorded by Snorri Sturluson of the killing of the giant Hrungnir by Thor. The giant's heart was said to be like the runic character, sharp-edged and three-cornered.
This could well be a sexual allusion, as the ideas of the thorn and the penis are not unrelated, as the archaic but still current slang term 'prick', meaning the male member, ably demonstrates.
The shape-shifting power of this rune is that ascribed to trolls or ogres. That it is hardly favourable is supported by the gloss that 'misfortune makes few men cheerful'."
http://www.ragweedforge.com/runemean.html


Anglo-Saxon:

"orn bi earle scearp; egna gehwilcum
onfeng is yfel, ungemetum re
manna gehwilcum e him mid reste."

Tr. by Swain Wodening:

"Thorn (Thorn) is very sharp for every thane
Who grabs it, it is evil and immeasurably cruel
For every man that with it rests."


"Thurisaz is a force of defense and destruction. "Bramble" or thorny bushes were used to "fence" and protect boundaries. One form of Norse/Germanic execution was to throw criminals "into thorns". Thor is the god that protects sacred enclosures in much the same way that the thorny hawthorne, blackthorn, or rose does. It is the thicket that protected Sleeping Beauty's castle, the hedge that surrounded sacred enclosures.

The thorn or the "spindle" was used to put "sleep" spells on beings, even those on a cosmic level, and was equally a thorn of awakening.
No matter how beautiful the rose, one should be careful to watch for thorns."
http://www.eskimo.com/~valkyrie/ru/ruintro.html (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Evalkyrie/ru/ruintro.html)


"Thurisaz holds the life-death polarity. It is the ultimate power to assimilate potential energy of two extremes of kinetic energy into a pattern of action. Thurisaz is a projectable form of applied power. Generally, this may work as a limitation and direction of a variety of energy-form binary pairs found throughout the Rune row. That is, any Rune that is essentially energetic may be combined with any Rune that has primarily paradigmatic characteristics by the force of Thurisaz and directed in a real way.

This is also a Rune of regeneration and fertilization. As the lightning announces the crop-bringing rains, so Thurisaz breaks down barriers and fertilizes so that new beginnings may be made. The thorn is the thorn of awakening that dispels the power of the svefnthorn (sleep-thorn).

This is the cosmic phallic power.

Thurisaz is a Rune of non-action. Thus, the gateway is not to be approached and passed through without contemplation. Here you are being confronted with a clear reflection of what is hidden in yourself, what must be exposed and examined before right action can be undertaken. This Rune strengthens your ability to wait."
http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/hafapea/magickpages/runes/thurisaz.html


"It makes poeple careless at the wrong moment; it makes people sicken; it drives people insane. It is particularly suitable for increasing the fear of poeple already afraid. Of Odin's list of eighteen runes, the sixth turns an enemy's spells against them. In the poem the spell is stated to be the root of a sapling with runes cut into it.- (Cooper, Esoteric Rune Magic.)

Directed cosmic power of defense. It symbolizes Mjollnir, the Hammer of Thor. It is pure will untempered by self-consciousness. It is a projectable form of applied power. The force of Thurisaz is able to direct their energies in an effective fashion."
http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/galdr.html


"It may be used in meditation as a potent tool to understand the warrior maiden aspect of Yrsa."


"This rune appears as an upright, with a triangle ‘sticking out’, like a thorn. It is emblematical of the both the race of Thurses, and their foe, Thorr (who is both a God of crops, and a warder [his wife is Sif, embodiment of ripening grain]).
In ancient Germanic lore, to prick a person with a thorn could cause enchantment “and by pricking both my thumbs, something wicked this way comes…”. Numerous Germanic children’s stories still speak of thorns used with spells (Sigrdrifa, Sleeping Beauty…The thorn of phallus waking the maiden).

It is the rune of aimed, or directed might. It bodes of weal and/or woe.
Thurisaz may betoken the breaking down of mental barriers for new thought or ideas.
Thurisaz is the force that destroys barriers, making way for growth and rebirth.
An erotic (male) vital force, a catalyst (for good or ill) of change, purging, cleansing fire.

This may correlate with the Unicorn and the Maiden... Only the maiden, symbol of sexual purity, can catch the unicorn, who then will "lay his head on her lap" ... a kinder image referring to the deflowering of the virgin.
The union between the mystical (unicorn) and physical (maidenhead) is a subtext of this theme."
http://www.tarotforum.net/printthread.php?t=3943


Thurisaz in Literature: http://www.nordic-life.org/nmh/runes/thurisaz.htm

Thurisaz Themes: http://pages.prodigy.net/gary_s/oerp/chap03.htm

Transliteration in Germanic:

Thurisaz - [IE 'tern']
Gmc 'urisaz', ['urnu']. OE 'yrs', ['orn'], ['ornu']. ON 'urs'. Go 'auris'.
Thorn (Eng), Thurisaz (Gmc), Thurs (ON), Thorn (OE), Thuith, Thurisa, Thurisar, Thorunisaz, Thyth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Runic_alphabet#Rune_name_transliter ations_in_the_Germanic_languages


I.E. Tere gives:

"II. Variant form *tr- (< *tra-). 1. trans-, transient, transom, from Latin trns, across, over, beyond, through (perhaps originally the present participle of a verb *trre, to cross over). 2. Suffixed form *tr-yo-. seraglio, serai; caravansary, lamasery, from Iranian *thrya-, to protect.

III. Possible extended form *tru-. 1. Suffixed form *tru-k-. truculent, from Latin trux (stem truc-), savage, fierce, grim (< “overcoming,” “powerful,” “penetrating”). "
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE528.html


Troll:
"Fig. sense of "to draw on as with a moving bait, entice, allure" is from 1565. Meaning "to cruise in search of sexual encounters"...
cf. Swed. trolla "to charm, bewitch;" O.N. trolldomr "witchcraft." The old sagas tell of the troll-bull, a supernatural being in the form of a bull, as well as boar-trolls. There were troll-maidens, troll-wives, and troll-women; the trollman, a magician or wizard, and the troll-drum, used in Lappish magic rites."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=troll

See also Thwart: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=thwart

And words related to Spindle: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=spindle&searchmode=none

Arrian
Tuesday, July 18th, 2006, 08:08 PM
Th-UR-IS-AZ

This may correlate with the Unicorn and the Maiden... Only the maiden, symbol of sexual purity, can catch the unicorn, who then will "lay his head on her lap" ... a kinder image referring to the deflowering of the virgin.
The union between the mystical (unicorn) and physical (maidenhead) is a subtext of this theme."
http://www.tarotforum.net/printthread.php?t=3943

The 'thorn' has resonance with the 'horn' in some of the poems on the Thurisaz rune in literature. So a comment on the above;

On the Unicorn and the Virgin:

"Pliny says the unicorn's body resembles a horse, its head a stag, its feet an elephant, its tail a boar, while its horn is black. The unicorn's horn was its most valuable possession, since it was believed to be able to cure everything from epilepsy to poisoning. One reputed unicorn horn was kept in water in the Cathedral of St. Denis in France. It was so potent that even the water could cure the sick. [...] Even though the unicorn did not exist, folklore evolved a method for capturing one. A virgin was put in a field to lure the animal to her. This she accomplished by exposing her breast. The animal, unable to resist such purity, would come up to the virgin, lie down, and placing its head on her lap, fall asleep. [...] White goes on to describe how the unicorn was slaughtered, making of the scene of the novel almost an account of the Passion of Christ. The symbolism is not outrageous, since the animal was often used in medieval imagery as a sign of Christ's Incarnation. Just as the world destroyed Christ, so it destroys his image, the unicorn. The identification of the unicorn with Christ, however, upset the members of the Council of Trent of the Roman Catholic Church held in the sixteenth century. They forbade its use as a symbol of Christ's incarnation, though it was still retained as a sign of chastity. It is not known whether the prelates came to their decision through scientific inquiry (the animal did not really exist) or thought the animal an inappropriate symbol for Christ, since in one legend, narrated by Leonardo da Vinci in his bestiary, the unicorn was captured by a virgin as a result of its own lustful advances. The Church Fathers therefore thought it was best to remove the animal from church symbolism. There was one problem, however, in their decision. They could not remove all the references to the animal in the Bible. When the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek (the Septuagint), the translators took the word reem, which might stand for wild ox, and translated it monokeros, or one-horned. This rendering was followed in later Latin versions, which in turn influenced English translations such as the King James Version. In the Book of Numbers (23:22) we have the verse: God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. The Revised Standard Version substituted wild ox in the verse."

http://members.tripod.com/~stace123/stace4.html

Arrian
Tuesday, July 18th, 2006, 08:11 PM
Themes.

Fehu: http://pages.prodigy.net/gary_s/oerp/chap01.htm

Ur: http://pages.prodigy.net/gary_s/oerp/chap02.htm

Moody
Wednesday, July 19th, 2006, 01:06 PM
That third I ken, if my need grows great
To fetter a foeman fell:
I can dull the swords of deadly foes,
That, nor wiles nor weapons avail.
[Havamal; rune-spell associated with Thorn by Guido von List]
[*Line 2 - fell: (poetic) fierce, ruthless, terrible, destructive]

Hollander tells us to cross-reference the above spell with the following verse from the Lay of Rig;

But Kon only could carve runes,
Runes lasting ay, life-keeping runes;
To bring forth babes birth runes he knew,
To dull sword edges & to calm the sea
[Rigsthula 44]

As Kon was symbolic of the aristocratic class, the suggestion is, therefore, that "only" that class "could carve runes".
This corrects those who have claimed the runes to be 'low'!


Rigsthula reminds us of what linguists call the 'thorn cluster' (th being the 'voiceless fricative' so typical of West Germanic).


If we search among that thorny thorn cluster of th/i]'s in the Old English dictionary of Sweet, we find;

Thylecraeft: rhetoric.

"Thule is the Nordic Atlantis ... Thule is conceived of as the utmost North ... it can also be interpreted as a gateway to the other side.
The term 'Thule' or 'Thulr also denotes an [i]initiated rune magician or inspired poet. The foremost Thule is Odin".
[Karlsson, Rune #12]

Arrian
Wednesday, July 19th, 2006, 06:37 PM
HYMISKVIA 11

"Ver heill, Hymir,
hugum gum!
N er sonr kominn
til sala inna,
s er vit vttum
af vegi lngum.
Fylgir hnum
Hrrs andskoti,
vinr verlia:
Vurr heitir s."

"Greetings, Hymir, I hope
you're in a good mood! Look
who has come to your halls -
the son that we've been
expecting to return from his
long journey. He is
accompanied by Hrr's foe,
the friend of humans, the one
called Vurr."


"Line 9. vinr verlia "friend of human beings" is a typical description of rr. He is called ta sinnir "helper of men" in rsdrpa 9, and later in Hymiskvia s er ldum bergr "he who rescues men". Cp. also Veratr "god of men", a name in Grmnisml 3 for inn (who is called skatna vinr "men's friend" in Hleygjatal 3).
The double designation of rr here, "Hrr's foe, friend of humans" is parallel to the same in stanza 22 "lone slayer of the serpent, he who protects men".

Line 10. Vurr "protector (of a sacred place)", a name for rr, used only in this poem (also 17, 21), and in Vlusp 57: Migars vurr (where it is hardly a proper name, but simply a word meaning "protector"). [The forms Vur and Harvurr are found among the names of the 'ula' of rr-names (Sks # 428).]"
http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/hymir/hym11.html (http://www.hi.is/%7Eeybjorn/ugm/hymir/hym11.html)


"The word thul must be kept together with OWN. thula 'string of words', as well as with OE. thyle 'orator, spokesman' (Bosworth & Toller). It is widely believed that the etymology is known (< *thulR: Proto-Germ. *thul- 'talk, mumble, sing' etc.; cf. Fick-Torp, p. 188; Noreen 1921, pp. 22 ff.; Vogt 1927, pp. 26 f.; AEW, p. 626; Clarke 1936; Eliason 1963; Hauck 1970, p. 98). It is interesting to note that the OE. thyle occurs in Beowulf, in the passage where king Hrodgar's "thyle" is mentioned, sitting by his king's feet (Beowulf, lines 1166 ff. and 1457, ed. Heyne; transl. Clark Hall):

Swylce thr Unferdh thyle
t ftum st fren Scyldinga:
gehwylc hiora his ferhdhe trewde,
tht h hfde md micel,
thyle Hrdhgres:

there sat Unferth the spokesman
at the Scylding chieftain's feet;
all of them trusted in his spirit,
that he had much courage,
Hrothgar's spokesman


Thus, in the light of the stipulated etymology, the central function for a thul was to talk. Whether this was to recite a poem or an ode in his capacity as a scald, to quote a section of a law in a judicial dispute as a man of law or to function as a spokesman, the one who speaks for a king or a chieftain during a banquet, lawsuit, cultic feast, etc., hence a kind of equivalent to the so-called "talking chief" (tulafale in Samoa) known in Oceania, is uncertain; personally I like the latter idea. The second element hg in this place-name (Salhghar) may be seen in the light of what is discussed below (hg). The first element sal has denoted, I think, some kind of hall in the vicinity of this hg (mound)."
http://viking.hgo.se/articles/Stefan/stefan5.html

Thula means verse and this is in keeping with spindle, spin, and the wheel of Thor.

" The Gothic letter name of Thurisaz was y, which apparently means "the good one.""


Thor's animal was the goat;
"He drives a wagon which is drawn by two goats, Tanngrsnir (Teeth-Barer or Teeth-Gnasher) and Tanngnjstr (Tooth-Gritter)."

Some say this is Sig - one could compare her golden hair with the golden era of Saturn - the old sea-goat was one of its symbols, and in your post 19, you mention Thor with Saturn in the Old Icelandic poem, and Thurisaz therefore can be related with the mountain-goat-horn. This gradually becomes the symbol of Lust, the Devil/Daemon in Judeo-Christianity.


http://www.666man.com/files/goat___mountain___working_model___single _horn.jpg


http://biblicalstudies.qldwide.net.au/148.jpg

http://courses.washington.edu/vertebra/452/photos/mammals/mt-goat_horns.jpg

http://www.thepaganfront.com/oriana/images/goathorns3_full.jpg

Tlingit or Tsimshian, native peoples of British Columbia, Canada, Ceremonial Spoon, late 19th century, mountain goat horn:

http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/h/images/horn_tlingit.22.lg.jpg

http://www.runemaster.com/images/catalog/fire-ice/FI88.jpg




As Kon was symbolic of the aristocratic class, the suggestion is, therefore, that "only" that class "could carve runes".
This corrects those who have claimed the runes to be 'low'!A valuable note!


"Here Rig teaches Jarl the Runes. This I believe is where our Folk gain so much in understanding that we began a complex practices for honoring our Elder Kin and more so the understanding of blood and soil or Odal lands. Here Rig counsels him on “make[ing] his own, the Odal lands, the Odal lands and old manors.” This is the idea of conquest, growth, and the good of the Folk. He also demonstrates the ability to wage war and use strategy. This is related in:

Out of woodlands came Rig walking,
came Rig walking, and taught him runes;
his own name gave him as heir and son,
bade him make his own, the udal lands,
the udal lands and olden manors.

He dauntless rode through darking woods,
over frostey fells, to a faraway hall.
Shields he shattered and shafts he hurled,
brandished his sword and swiftly rode;
he wakened war and warriours slew,
with wound-red weapons he won his land.

The next stanza relates the mastering the “18 manors”. I believe this is the mastery of the 18 runes of the Havamal. This could also be another relation of a shamanic initiation just as Oin hangs on Yggdrasil to become master of the Runes. I believe that he is mastering the runes and the ability to use them to change events, actions, etc…as well as mastering his soul. He has mastered total awareness. With his mastery he shares his wealth with all his Folk.

He made himself master of manors eighteen,
gan share his wealth and shower it on all;
silver and gold and slender steeds;
squanderdd arm rings and scattered gold.

...

Kon is described as only knowing runes. This seems to be an indication that from Jarl, a master of runes, comes one whose specialty are the runes. Another talent associated to the Kon Folk is only given to a special few, which is the understanding of bird’s speech. Kon’s Folk are a healing Folk that seems to hold the powers of a shaman. As most know the shaman is a special breed and not every person can be a shaman…they are “touched”. It is related this way:

But Kon only could carve runes,
runes lasting ay, life-keeping runes;
to bring forth babes, birth runes he knew,
to dull sword edges, and to calm the sea.

Fowls' speech he knew, and quenched fires,
could sooth (sorrows) and the sick mind heal;
in his arms the strength of eight men had.

Although he is shaman, he has the strength of “eight men”, which could elude to the four pall bearers (eight legs) in a funeral march (Davidson, 1974), or similarly as Oin’s eight legged steed. I believe that Kon is the symbolism of the total awareness of a shaman. This is perhaps that which will become of our Folk if they can focus, quiet, and direct their minds to total awareness. Kon is said to “rival Rig the Jarl” in runic lore, this is interesting because now we see God and man as one and alignment of the Soul:

In runes he rivaled Rig the Jarl;
with wiles he warred, outwitting him;
thus got for himself, and gained to have,
the name of Rig and runic lore.

This is another interesting allusion to shamanic initiation by outwitting the master to become the master."
http://www.odinic-rite.org/Rigthula.htm

With "only knowing runes", Kon marks a specialization of a function, of a distinct "Rune-Caste" one might say.

Arrian
Wednesday, July 19th, 2006, 07:36 PM
The goat-horns remind me also of horned Pan.

In mythology, Pan "is the Greek god who watches over shepherds and their flocks", like Thor does of men.

Thor's Seidhr and role-changing has a satyric quality like Pan was portrayed as a Satyr.

Like Thor is set around the mountains and the rocks, "Pan was originally an Arcadian god, and Arcadia was always the principal seat of his worship. Arcadia was a district of primitive mountain folk, whom other Greeks disdained, as the Olympians patronized Pan."

And like Thor can induce sudden fears and dull weapons, "Pan inspired sudden fear in lonely places, hence- "Panic"."

Like Thurisaz comes with phallic notions, "Pan is famous for his sexual prowess, and is often depicted with an erect phallus."

Like Thurisaz is the Thorn of Death and putting to sleep, "if one were to believe the Greek historian Plutarch (in "The Obsolescence of Oracles" (Moralia, Book 5:17)), Pan is the only Greek god who is dead. Robert Graves (The Greek Myths) suggested that the Egyptian Thamus apparently misheard Thamus Pan-megas Tethnece ('the all-great Tammuz is dead') for 'Thamus, Great Pan is dead!'."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_%28mythology))

http://www.visionaryrevue.com/webtext2/panjof11.html

http://www.astroleg.dk/_tema/capricorn/pan.jpg


In the list of Thunder Gods is mentioned -

"*unraz (Germanic mythology; Anglo-Saxon unor, German Donar, Norse rr), Fjrgynn (Norse mythology)
Taranis (Pan-Celtic);Ambisagrus, Leucetios, (Gaulish mythology); Tuireann (Irish mythology)... "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder

Moody
Friday, July 28th, 2006, 06:52 PM
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images2/boniface7.jpg
Saint Boniface, Christian missionary, cuts down an Oak sacred to Thor in Germany

Thor's foes clamour in a throng of din;
Hard thanes of Utgarth sow thorns!
[from Rune Poem by P.D. Brown]

http://www.usgennet.org/family/smoot/oldhand/rune.gif

A re-cap and addition to symbols evoked by the Thorn Rune, and expanded by the Kala approach of List:

Thorn: Thorned plants, e.g., acanthus, acacia, rose etc., symbolise the horns of the crescent moon; the thorn & the rose together depict the antithesis of pain & pleasure, suffering & joy ...

Thunder: the voice of the sky gods, with the thunderbolt as their weapon, the destroyer of serpents & spiritual enemies; divine anger; it is also an attribute of monarchs & magicians.
Thunder, roaring like a bull, brings the fecundating rain & is associated with lunar cnages. Rain coming only with thunder in some countries associates thunder with the fertilising waters & the nourishing water from heaven ...
The thunderbolt also symbolises the sacred union of the fecundating sky-god & the receptive earth-mother; it is an attribute of all smith-gods, such as Thor.
Symbols of thunder & attributes of all sky & storm gods are the hammer, drum, hatchet, lightning axe, bull-roarer.
The Oak tree; rolling thunder is also represented by the Dragon, the spiral & the flaming pearl.
Thunder gods are often depicted with red-hair.

Thule: The Hyperborean, primordial spiritual centre; the 'point quiescent'; the point of meeting of heaven & earth.
The Islands of the Blest; Paradise; the White Island; The White Mountain; The Green Island; The Island of Jewels; Avalon.

Throne: The seat of authority, knowledge & rule, both spiritual & temporal. The throne is raised on a dias as a world centre between heaven & earth. It also symbolises the miraculously born who are portrayed on thrones of special symbolism, such as the Dragon Throne ...

Giant: The brute forces of Nature; primordial power & forces; the elemental; darkness; night; winter.
The giant can be beneficient or malefic; a defender or an enemy.
In Scandinavian myth, frost & hell giants are chthonic powers ; fire giants depict the power of fire.

Dragon: A complex & universal symbol. The dragon, the winged serpent, combines the serpent & bird as matter & spirit. Originally it was wholly beneficient as the manifestation of the life-giving waters (the serpent) & the breath of life (the bird), & was identified with sky-gods & their earthly dlegates:emperors & kings.
Later it became ambivalent as both the fertilising rains, following thunder, & the destructive forces of lightning & flood ... it becomes chthonic, destructive & evil.
It can be solar or lunar, male or female, good or evil ...
Dragons as monsters are autochthonous 'masters of the ground', against which heroes, conquerors & creators must fight for mastery or occupation of the land; they are also [I]guardians of treasures & of the portals of esoteric knowledge.
The struggle with the dragon symbolises the difficulties to be overcome in gaining the treasures of inner knowledge ...

Oak: Strength; protection; durability; courage; truth; man; the human body.
The oak is often associated with thunder-gods & thunder; sky & fertility gods have the oak as an emblem, hence it can also represent lightning & fire ...
The oak was Thor's Tree of Life; Oak groves were places of worship in Germanic rites ...

Dwarf: The unconscious & amoral forces of Nature, such as gnomes, elves etc.,

Dying Gods: In fertility religions symbolise cyclic death & rebirth, vegetative death & renewal, life eternally dying & eternally reborn.
Dying gods combine both the masculine & feminine principles of the vegetation gods & the Great Mother, whose symbol is the tree ...
Characteristics of dying god symbolism are announced by a star at birth, or connected with a light; born of a virgin in a cave; sometimes visited by wise men; as a child the god teaches his instructors, predicts his own death & second coming; dies on a tree; descends into the earth for three days (the dark of the moon) & is resurrected ...
The shrines of dying gods are places of tribal enactment ...
All dying god religions are initiatory & the candidate for initiation must also die to the world ...

Phallus: The masculine creative principle; the procreating, generative forces of nature & the human race; the function & potency of the creator; the stream of life. An apotropaic [i.e., averts evil] symbol.
Ithyphallic [erect] figures represent the imparting of life to man & nature; fertility; procreation; potency ...
Phallic symbols include the pillar ... anything piercing or penetrating such as the sword, lance & arrow.
But what pierces also destroys ....
[culled mainly from Cooper's Encyclopedia of Symbols]

Arrian
Sunday, July 30th, 2006, 02:48 PM
"Then the road plunged again into a dense thicket, traversed it, and climbing to the left, emerged suddenly upon a glade, round and level except at the northern side, where a swelling hillock was crowned with a huge oak-tree. It towered above the heath, a giant with contorted arms, beckoning to the host of lesser trees. "Here," cried Winfried, as his eyes flashed and his hand lifted his heavy staff, "here is the Thunder-oak; and here the cross of Christ shall break the hammer of the false god Thor.""

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16134/16134-h/images/hammer.jpg



A pause on Thor's 'Belt of Strength', Megin-gjarir - the magical 'strength increaser' - this, as noted is a major aspect of Thurisaz. Like his magic girdle, Thurisaz is a fetter, for fastening, and can induce strength.

Megin:

AS. maegen: strength, power, force; akin to
OHG. magan, Icel. megin, and to E. may, v. [root]103. See
May, v.]
1. Strength; force; might; violent effort.

Might, n. [AS. meaht, miht, from the root of magan to be
able, E. may; akin to D. magt, OS. maht, G. macht, Icel.
m[=a]ttr, Goth. mahts. [root]103. See May, v.]

Force or power of any kind, whether of body or mind; energy
or intensity of purpose, feeling, or action; means or
resources to effect an object; strength; force; power;
ability; capacity.

"The name Mjollnir (Germanic *meldunijaz) is clearly a Northern European mythographic term, since it can directly be compared with Latvian milna (Baltic *mildna), the name of the chief pagan god Perkun's hammer. The two together can then be related to the Balto-Slavic and Welsh words for 'lightning', 'thunderbolt': Old Prussian mealde, Byelorussian maladna, Russian molnija, despite its isolation in insular Celtic, Welsh mellt 'lightning', singulative mellten 'bolt of lightning', which gives a N.European *meld-." (Watkins)


Thurisaz' elemental colour red is also related with the Rowan in the orsdrapa:

"Then Thor picked up a stone and threw it at the giantess, saying: "At its mouth the river is to be stopped". He did not miss his mark. Having reached the other bank of the river, he took hold of a rowan, and thus gained the land. Hence the proverb: "Thor's salvation, the rowan"."
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/rydberg/114.php

Features of the Thurisaz rune, especially the death and protection motif, can also be seen in the Rowan:

"One of the Rowan's main properties is that of protection. The red berries of the rowan were considered sacred by most cultures and are symbolic of the forces of creation - blood, life, death and renewal."

The association with the serpents and dragons; Thor was also called the Archer - one of his titles was Harvorr – Mighty Archer in the Eddas.
Thurisaz can be thought of as the pointed/piercing tip of an arrow:

"The old peoples of Ireland believed that the rowan possessed the power to restore lost youth and was guarded by serpents and dragons. They also associated the rowan with Brigid and Brigantia whose arrows were made from rowan wood."

One thinks of a similar myth with Thor and his stolen mjolnir;

"In Aegean/Mediterranean myths the rowan is connected to a tale about the drinking cup of Zeus, which was stolen from Olympus. An eagle was sent to recover the cup and a battle raged with the creatures that stole it."

"Rowan wood can be carried and used to increase psychic powers. Tying two small twigs of rowan together with red thread in the form of an equal-armed cross is an age-old protective amulet. Walking sticks and staffs are made from rowan and are excellent tools for those who roam the field or woods by night, as well as an aid to walking, they offer protection from lightning. Similarly when traveling across water carrying a piece of rowan will prevent the ship becoming involved in storms."
http://www.controverscial.com/Rowan.htm

"Its berries were magickally cast upon to produce sustenance of nine meals. It was used to heal the wounded, and could add a year to a man's life. The Rowan tree indicates protection and control of the senses from enchantment and beguiling."

Its interesting that in the Ogham, the sacred Rowan and the Oak both related to the Thor are symmetrical opposites of each other.
http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/ogham/ogh-alph.html (http://www.csupomona.edu/%7Ejcclark/ogham/ogh-alph.html)


Thor is also addressed as the Bear 'Bjorn' in the Eddas; besides the giant size, the berserker connection (bear-skin), the bear's hibernative feature allows us to think of the thurisaz again as the thorn of sleep/death.
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-9GOTIkI5cqomq0cm3ycs?t=t&p=224

Arrian
Thursday, August 17th, 2006, 08:15 PM
"When Thor goes by the name Vior he represents vitality, the life force that animates every being. In the vastness of space Thor is Trudgalmer (sound of Thor), the sustaining energy (Fohat of Oriental philosophy) that organizes cosmos out of chaos and sets the galactic pinwheels churning. Trud or Thor is the impelling force which keeps atoms in motion.

Trudgalmer has two sons: Mode (force) and Magne (strength), which suggest the two poles of electricity or magnetism on the cosmic level. Everything connected with Thor repeats the duality of bipolar power. His sons, centrifugal and centripetal action, manifest as radiation and gravitation in all forms of life."

- The Masks of Odin by Elsa-Brita Titchenell

Waldeule
Monday, August 28th, 2006, 11:53 AM
Is it true that Guido v. List "received" the runes while he lay comatic or something like that?

Moody
Monday, August 28th, 2006, 03:37 PM
Is it true that Guido v. List "received" the runes while he lay comatic or something like that?

Nearly; we know that it is said that Odin "recieved" the runes while being hanged on the "wind-swept tree".
So in the true Odinist tradition, von List himself had a moment of mystic revelation while being temporarily blinded after an eye operation.
What was revealed to him, was not so much 'receipt' of the runes [as he already knew a fair bit about the runes prior to this], but rather the intuition that the 18 rune row was the original Aryan one, and that these 18 runes were referred to in the Rune Song of Odin in the Havamal [Elder Edda].

This revelation is laid out by von List in his ground-breaking work 'The Secret of the Runes' [see the English translation by Stephen (Edred Thorsson) Flowers]; he calls his runic system the 'Armanen'.

This is the work from which the runology of Kummar, Wiligut, Aswynn, Thorsson, Karlsson et al., ultimately flows.

Unfortunately, not much of his work is in English translation - this may account for the ignorance shown towards von List's achievements in the English-speaking world [something not found in Germany, of course, where the von List system is still in use].
There are a few exceptions such as this lot;
http://www.armanen.org/

http://images.gildia.pl/literatura/tworcy/guido_von_list/foto/w200/
[b]The Holy Master, Guido von List

Arrian
Saturday, September 2nd, 2006, 10:45 AM
Os

s is the point of origin of all speech,
wisdom's support and the wise man's help
and for every earl joy and hope.

The Rune Os in the old english rune poem- a mouthful of trouble:
http://www.english.uga.edu/~mathelie/mathii3.html#rune

lfhere
Monday, February 5th, 2007, 07:04 PM
A few links:

Some useful info on the Armanen Futharkh can be found on this site, be ready to sift through a bunch of weird advertisements though.
http://www.runemagick.com/

Some slightly different rune meanings than those on the link provided by Blutwlfin.
http://www.aepalizage.com/runes/armanen.html

An Armanen rune table I made some time ago:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d32/Ratatosk2/afutharkhl.jpg

chrisjqb
Monday, June 4th, 2007, 05:29 PM
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibor) says there is no historical gibor rune and Guido von List devised it in 1902.

Yet Ms. 17, St John's College, Oxford has a letter with meaning G which to me looks like a gibor rune.

I saw this first in the dutch (Fibula) translation of R I Page, Runes, London,British museum

The mayjones (http://www.maryjones.us/jce/nennius_alphabet.html) website has a picture of it and dates it around the year 800.

klokkwerx
Thursday, June 7th, 2007, 07:02 PM
There is nothing authentically Nordic or Germanic about the Armanen Runes. They are nothing but figments of Guido "von" List's fertile imagination. A knowledge of them contributes nothing to one's ability to interpret real runes or to use them in divination. They are as fictional as the Angerthas Moria.

I will stick with the Elder Futhark because it is the original and has all the Runes which represent all aspects, the Armanen Runes are a compact version of the original. The Armanen Runes might work for some Folk but I think they are missing out on it all. Lists' visions of the Armanen Runes is a sign of a true inspired individual, and much needed for our rediscovering of our true Faith. But, the original is the original, it was etched in stone (Kylver Stone) by our ancestor(s) before X-ianity corrupted the area.
http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heathenry/artefacts/kylver.jpg

Kith of woden
Sunday, June 10th, 2007, 12:19 AM
My opinion on this is to steer clear of anything Mr Thorsson has touched. He has been in bad health for the last few years,and again in my opinion its because he has meddled in things he dosent truely understand.

lfhere
Sunday, June 10th, 2007, 03:04 AM
Runology is a difficult thing. Aside from the rune poems, themselves being somewhat Christianized, we have little to go on. Authors like Thorsson, Pennick, Aswynn and others are trying to take what little there is left and rebuild the runic system as best they can. What they come up with won't be the same thing our ancestors had, but at least they're making the attempt. Though I may not agree with everything they say, I must give them credit for their hard work.

klokkwerx
Wednesday, June 13th, 2007, 08:50 PM
My opinion on this is to steer clear of anything Mr Thorsson has touched. He has been in bad health for the last few years,and again in my opinion its because he has meddled in things he dosent truely understand.
I agree with you on the Thorsson opinion for today, but before he was corrupted by numerous things he has published about 4-5 books that hit the nail on the head when it comes to the Runes, he knows his stuff when it comes to it. It is a sad thing to see his person take a left turn. There are a couple of threads on him in BuB.

Veratr
Sunday, January 20th, 2008, 04:09 PM
Does anyone have some information about the Armanen Runes? All that I know is that they were first invisioned by Guido von List and they have different meanings than the Elder Futhark.

Eccardus Teutonicus
Friday, March 28th, 2008, 10:33 PM
Does anyone have some information about the Armanen Runes? All that I know is that they were first invisioned by Guido von List and they have different meanings than the Elder Futhark.

I'm surprised no one has gotten back to you yet on this. The Armanen Rune row (the Fuarkh)was developed by (his followers say "revealed to") Guido von List after he was struck blind for several weeks. It is based on the Rnatl ttir ins, which lists eighteen spells or "secrets" (ON rn) after relating the myth of inn's self-sacrifice to gain these runes. He bases it on the Younger Fuark largely, but does create some new runes, the one which stands out being Gifu (used widely as a Germanic fascist symbol in the Netherlands and also the symbol of SS Div. III "Das Reich"). The fylfot and trifot play very big roles for List as well, because of his trifidic-triune triad and bifidic-biune dyad philosophies regarding the magical properties of his Fuarkh and the Runes in general.

You can get his book "The Secrets of the Runes" at amazon.com, with an introduction by Dr. Stephen Flowers (better known by his pseudonym "Edred Thorsson") which covers List's life and philosophies in great detail.

Beornulf
Friday, March 28th, 2008, 10:54 PM
I just noticed this thread myself. The Armanen runes and philosophy itself is very interesting. The Secret of the Runes has been one of the most influential books I have read to date.

It covers the runes in a very esoteric light, giving them not just practical uses but very mystical properties which were generally disregarded in those days. List was a visionary and you will notice as such when he related the symbolism of ancient times with those of today. I especially enjoyed his work relating to the secret use of these symbols to avoid Christian persecution.

It's certainly something I'd recommend looking into.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, March 29th, 2008, 06:39 AM
You could try Rune Might, also by Edred Thorsson, in which he discusses the differences between the Runes of List and others.

Veratr
Friday, April 4th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Thanks for replying. I've looked into the Armanen runes and I've read the lines of Hvaml that supposedly describe the runes, and I'm convinced that the Armanen runes are important to our heritage.

Eccardus Teutonicus
Friday, April 4th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Thanks for replying. I've looked into the Armanen runes and I've read the lines of H&#225;vam&#225;l that supposedly describe the runes, and I'm convinced that the Armanen runes are important to our heritage.

One Armanen concept definitely important to our heritage is List's trifidic-triune triad and bifidic-biune dyad. As for the Armanen staves themselves I feel that List by making the mysteries of the R&#250;nat&#225;l &#254;&#225;ttir &#243;&#240;ins concrete takes away some of their power, because he restricts them into stave forms, whereas if they are understood simply as r&#250;na, as "mysteries", they retain a great deal of &#211;&#240;innic power that is inherent to them; methodisation kills the freer nature of the spells, and the futharkh therefore robs them of some of their magic. That's just my opinion.

chrisjqb
Monday, April 27th, 2009, 03:33 PM
And they said that the Younger Fuark was the original one while the Elder Fuark was "invented" by some historians who just added some more runes to make it look more "serious".

If that is true then it explains something I never understood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_calendar

For the runic calendar 19 runes are needed. The Elder Fuark has more than 19 runes. Yet for the calendar 3 extra runes were devised.

Maybe the Elder Fuark was not used for the calendar because it was not original?

Haunebu III
Saturday, June 13th, 2009, 05:03 AM
And they said that the Younger Fuark was the original one while the Elder Fuark was "invented" by some historians who just added some more runes to make it look more "serious".


Alaf Sal Runa!
Please reveal who "they" are and why you believe that the Elder Futhark was "invented by some historians." What is the source of this information please.

Wir sind alle Armanrn!
Haunebu III

JOGRAL
Saturday, August 8th, 2009, 04:46 AM
My friends, I believe that the runes are truly discovered by Wotan-Odin
when of its auto-sacrifice in the Igdrasil Tree (the only true savior of the - Hiperborians) for giving to us as war weapons for its liberation of the chains of the matter.
In this magic War of the darkness of the illusion and of the great lie that is...
that is the context that surrounds us.
They are truly increated and aeternal signs and its number should be of thirteen more three runes.
Its Spiritual interpretation allows to recover the domain of the "Language of the Birds".
It is for here that all your efforts should be oriented.

Jogral

Vindefense
Sunday, August 9th, 2009, 03:44 AM
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:

In character, in manner, in style, in all things, the supreme excellence is simplicity.

My experience with the Amanen runes led me to understand that all things in the natural world are always seeking to return to simplicity. This is evident since all life begins in a simple manner, becomes complex and then returns to dirt.

The indo-European root language is said to have consisted mainly of vowels. More consonants were added as the people became more complex. Much the same way that a baby learns to speak. I think that this is key to understanding the runes. The forces they contain are elemental. As such, they are also unbreakable.

To say that list merely reduced the other runic systems isn't quite true. He only recognized that, like everything else, the runes began as roots and then branched out. Everything in it's root form, is not only simpler, but also more concentrated and potent. Perhaps this was revealed to List in the same manner that it was revealed to Woden.

At any rate, I am very interested in the work of List. Are there any more translations available that any one knows of?

Landers
Monday, November 8th, 2010, 01:41 AM
As an addition to this topic:

The Armanen Runes lack every kind of evidence and are no real Runes, but invented ones, resp. changed Scandinavian Runes.

The Armanen Futharkh: A Controversial Rune Row? (http://www.oocities.com/fjornpim/TheArmanenFutharkhControversialPDF.pdf)

Ice-dragon
Saturday, December 4th, 2010, 07:16 PM
Reading through these posts, which are interesting and helpful, one thing occurred to me. Me, being a humble layman, be no expert on the subject. The thing that occurred to me was, that there were and are many educated folk trying the make sense of the runes, trying to match each to it's counterpart of our 'Roman alphabet. The one true source of the runes are actual rune-stones and other various etching made by our ancestors. They never had as many phonetic sounds as we have in our alphabet. Maybe the next best source to look at, is the early use of Icelandic language. The 'Younger Futhark' give promise of being the original sounds of our forefathers.
But, this is just me looking at it from outside the box. I was always one for questioning the publishings of others. Because, who are they anyway? What authority do they have on a subject? Are they not just folk (albeit with a title of some sort) just as you or I with an opinion of their own?

Remember, the original users of the runes, had less sounds to their tongue than we.

Vanima
Wednesday, February 9th, 2011, 09:01 AM
I respect List's work though I have long ago chosen to work "directly", using sources that don't date past the Runic Period.

List's aims were often political (like the unification of Austria and Germany), and he was influenced by the anti-semitic views of his time. Personally I believe that when you look through a dirty mirror you will not get a clear view.

I will use mythology books elaborated and transated, but when it comes to runes I use the runic poems like the Abecedarium and references from texts like Tacitus's Germania and work my way from there, anything "modern" is of less interest to me. Of course this is a spiritual path, at least for me, so that is also a part of my work.
To be quite honest, Germanic Philology sudies confirm, and I do not doubt it, that the eldest futhark available is indeed the Elder Futhark, derived from italic symbols and bronze age ideographic carvings, around the second century BC, under the insipration and Guidance of Hr of course.

Because of the organic and fluid nature of languages, it is only normal that some sounds appear and dissapear and the alphabet changes accordingly
You can trace *i.e. from *germ from ags. afris. got, etc etc etc because of the various rules like Verner's or the consonant mutation
(I am sorry if the translations are not perfect, I am translating from Italian Terminology)

At the end of the day, One must also follow what one feels is true, with watever means they consider important. When in doubt, ask Odin :)