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WarMaiden
Thursday, October 21st, 2004, 06:49 AM
http://realmagick.com/articles/14/2014.html

Mistress Klaus
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 03:00 AM
:smt002 I've always found the 8 legged horse (with the Runes carved in his teeth) Sleipnir, fascinating. He was the derivation of the reindeers...travelling over land, sea & air.

WarMaiden
Thursday, October 28th, 2004, 04:32 AM
:smt002 I've always found the 8 legged horse (with the Runes carved in his teeth) Sleipnir, fascinating. He was the derivation of the reindeers...travelling over land, sea & air.

Me too Skadi :)

She-Wolf
Wednesday, November 3rd, 2004, 08:38 PM
That was a very lovely article, thanks for posting this.

WarMaiden
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 12:59 AM
That was a very lovely article, thanks for posting this.


Most Welcome!!

:hveðrungur:
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 07:33 PM
Actually Saint Nicholas was Santa Clause, he was a pagan who would make toys for children of poor familys at yule and give them to the parents of the childen to give to their kids. After he died the church made him a "saint" in order to take yet another good, well known pagan in history and associate him with their lies and cultural holocaust. In other words they basically said

"He was a damn good man, we cant let him be known through history as a evil pagan, he needs to be a christian so we will make him a staint since he is dead and after a while people will forget he was the bringer of toys for poor children at yule and think he was another good man of god"

:wiking

Siegfried
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 09:06 PM
Saint Nicholas is still a holiday in the Netherlands; we celebrated it just last sunday. In the days leading up to december 5th, children place their shoes in front of the fireplace before going to bed. At night, the parents put presents and/or candy in them, pretending Saint Nicholas and his negroid helpers gave them. At december 5th, the children get a whole bunch of presents. The holiday has recently come under fire from multicultural fanatics who consider it 'racist' that the white Saint Nicholas rides on a horse, while his helpers are negroids that have to walk and are all called 'Piet'. :D

Ewergrin
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Saint Nicholas is still a holiday in the Netherlands; we celebrated it just last sunday. In the days leading up to december 5th, children place their shoes in front of the fireplace before going to bed. At night, the parents put presents and/or candy in them, pretending Saint Nicholas and his negroid helpers gave them. At december 5th, the children get a whole bunch of presents. The holiday has recently come under fire from multicultural fanatics who consider it 'racist' that the white Saint Nicholas rides on a horse, while his helpers are negroids that have to walk and are all called 'Piet'. :D

Isn't his name Sinter Klaas? Or something similar? I saw a television program about this one time. he has little black people help him, but they don't use real blacks, but rather whites in blackface.

Siegfried
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 09:34 PM
Isn't his name Sinter Klaas? Or something similar?

Yes, it's usually spelled as Sinterklaas, which is derived from the original Sint Nicolaas.



I saw a television program about this one time. he has little black people help him, but they don't use real blacks, but rather whites in blackface.

Yes, the custom developed when the Netherlands were still lily white and nowadays you'll probably won't find a lot of blacks who would want to do it. It's mostly whites pretending to be black. It's probably a reference to slavery.

GreenHeart
Thursday, December 9th, 2004, 02:39 AM
That interpretation is a little too new-agey for my taste. Here's a better one I found the other day.

About Yule:


Yule was midwinter festival, celebrated by the Norse/Teutonic and Celtic people as the day of merrymaking. It was commemorated with the Yule cake and giving out gifts. It was a day sacred to Odin, Thorburn and Freyr.

Yule was the night when the Wild Hunt was at its peak. Odin rode his eight-legged horse, named Sleipnir. Odin led a band of spectral horsemen and hounds in a hunt through the night sky. On the night of Yule, children usually placed socks filled with hay outside their doors to feed Sleipnir.

Since Yule marked the shortest day in the year (though the winter solstice now lands on December 22), the Wild Hunt is at its greatest height, because the night was at its longest duration. The Christians has adopted many of the pagan customs of Yule in the day of Christmas (December 25), such as giving out gifts to children, the decoration of the fir trees. Saint Nicholas, or Santa Claus as he was popularly known today, and his reindeers replaced Odin and Sleipnir of the Wild Hunt.

http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/way.html#Yule


The Wild Hunt was a popular folklore found in Scandinavian and Germanic myth, as well in later folklore in Britain and northern European countries, which had changed over the centuries.

The group of hunters were variously known as the Furious Host or Raging Host. The hunt usually takes part during winter, where a spectral host of horsemen riding through the stormy sky, with their ghostlike hounds. The chillingly sound of the hunting horn can be heard reverberating through the woods and meadows.

In the Norse myths, the original leader of the hunt was the god Odin, known in Germanic myth as Wodan. Odin rode his eight-legged horse, called Sleipnir. His company of hunters were the Valkyries and the dead warriors who resided with him in Valhalla.

The hunt begins on Winter Nights (October 31) and doesn't end May Eve (April 30) of the following year. These two nights were special, because lights go out on all Nine Worlds and the spirits and goblins are free to roam on the earth's surface. However the height of the Wild Ride falls on the night of midwinter festival, known as Yule (December 21), traditionally the shortest day of the year in Scandinavia and Germany.

In other legends, different names were given for the leader of the Hunt, depending on the regions in Europe and periods. Some of the lead hunters were legendary and historical rulers, such as King Arthur, Charlemagne, Herla and Frederick Barbarossa.

There is even a Welsh legend about the Wild Hunt, whose lead bunter was said to be named Gwyn ap Nudd, an otherworldly fairy ruler. Gwyn owned a pack of fairy hounds, known as cw'n annwfn. The Welsh Arthur was sometimes said to be the leader, as it is the case in the tale of Culhwch and Olwen in the Mabinogion, where they hunted the deadly wild boar, Twrch Trwyth. Gwyn was usually associated with the Welsh May Day (Calan Mai).

According to English folklore, the Wild Huntsman was Herne, who appeared in Shakespeare's play, The Merry Wives of Winsdor. Herne was perhaps a historical figure, living at the time of Richard II of England, during the 14th century. Herne saved the king's life from the deadly antlers and killed the white stag, but he himself was dying. A wizard saved his life, by placing the stag's antlers on Herne's head, and chanting a spell. Herne discovered that he would lose his skills in hunting and tracking as payment for his survival. Herne loved hunting more than anything else in his life, was distraught, fell into depression and died. His body was discovered in his forest, near the castle of Winsdor. Since then, he reappeared with other ghostly companions, doing what he loves most - hunting.

http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/way.html#Hunt

WarMaiden
Thursday, December 9th, 2004, 04:19 AM
Saint Nicholas is still a holiday in the Netherlands; we celebrated it just last sunday. In the days leading up to december 5th, children place their shoes in front of the fireplace before going to bed. At night, the parents put presents and/or candy in them, pretending Saint Nicholas and his negroid helpers gave them. At december 5th, the children get a whole bunch of presents. The holiday has recently come under fire from multicultural fanatics who consider it 'racist' that the white Saint Nicholas rides on a horse, while his helpers are negroids that have to walk and are all called 'Piet'. :D

I lived in Utrecht for 3 years, Saint Nick and Black Piet where good fun to see coming into town.. When i lived there they where also complaining about his black helpers, funny things is whites complain about it not nigs....

Wodens Day
Wednesday, October 29th, 2008, 02:58 AM
How Odin Became Santa Claus: Symbolism and Pagan Origins of a Gift-Giving Saint
by Anja Heij

http://www.odins-gift.com/poth/1imoth/wildhunt2.gif http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9748/santasleigh800ip3.jpg

The story begins in the northern regions of Europe where the supreme god Odin, also known as Wodan among the German tribes, reigned. (He still lives among us in Wednesday, which is Wodan’s day). Odin/Wodan was the god of wisdom, magick and occult knowledge, runes, poetry and war. His name means “the inspired one”. Like a shaman he could travel in other worlds to gather more insight while his two black ravens Huginn (Thought) and Muninn (Memory) kept him informed about the news in the world. Odin was depicted as a tall, old man with a white beard and wearing a cloak. He rode the skies and the seas on his fast white horse Sleipnir with his 8 (the number of transformation) legs, while carrying his never missing spear Gungnir (clear and focused intent) in his hand. He had one eye, for he had offered the other eye in exchange for gathering wisdom at the well of the head Mimir (Norse representation of the Source) and with that he became a shapeshifter, able of seeing in the outward world with his normal eye and understanding the inward worlds with his black, removed, eye. He was very beloved among his friends and followers who felt happy and energized in his surroundings (an enlightened being?). His enemies however he could paralyze or kill with his sight (insight, the truth). Odin trained many men and women as warriors for the final battle against the forces of destruction in the underworld at Ragnarok (the Norse judgement day). His fearless warriors often painted their bodies black and fought in the middle of the night.

The story of Odin/Wodan is the battle between good and evil which will stop when we finally realize that black and white are two sides of the same coin. Odin is a mythical representation of goodness with his wisdom, white beard and white horse (in New Age terms we would depict him as ‘white divine light’). And he is wise enough to understand that ‘black’ is not similar to ‘dark’ in the sense of ‘evil and taboo’ for his helpers are black ravens and black (spiritual) warriors. The evil he fights is the underworld dragon of false beliefs, untruth and selfishness (in New Age terms we would call this ‘ego’).
(So now we have a wise, good man performing magick/miracles with a white horse riding the skies, a white beard, a cloak, a spear and black advisors/informers/helpers and he is also god of poetry).

Next we go to the Roman empire where between December 17 and 24 the pagan Saturnalia were celebrated, big feasts with a lot of merrymaking, dancing, gambling, sensuality and the exchange of gifts. This festival was meant to celebrate the return of the sun on the shortest days of the year and to counteract the depression due to lack of sunlight.
(Here we find December celebrations with gifts.)

Time goes by. Christianity develops itself. In the 4th century in Myra, Turkey, a Christian bishop named Nicholas lived with a great reputation for goodness, benevolence and performing miracles for the poor and unhappy. He miraculously supplied gold to three (number of manifestation) girls as marriage dowries so they did not have to become prostitutes and he brought three children back to life who had been chopped by a butcher. It is not difficult to understand that during the poverty of the Middle Ages (also called Dark Ages) this bishop became extremely popular as Saint Nicholas in all parts of Europe. His feastday, it was said to be his birthday, was December 5 or 6, nobody knows. There is no historical evidence however for the true existence of this saint.
(So now we see a benevolent, miracle performing bishop with a white dress and a red cloak.)

After the Reformation Saint Nicholas became forgotten in all the protestant countries of Europe except Holland. There he became Sinterklaas; a kind and wise old man with a white beard, white dress, red cloak, a crosier and riding the skies and roofs of the houses on his white horse, accompanied by his Black Jacks. Sinterklaas will visit you on his birthday December 5 or 6 and donate gifts. His Black Jacks have miraculously gathered information about your behavior during the last year; if it were good you will now be rewarded with presents, if it were bad you will be punished by the Black Jacks who will beat you with their rods or even worse: put you in a big bag and take you with to Spain, said to be the residence of Sinterklaas. The last thing seems to be a Christian influence: punishment by a severe father if you don’t behave morally just. On the other hand: if you do behave nice you will be rewarded with sweets and gifts accompanied by humoristic poems that give insight in your weaknesses.
(Here the mix becomes clear between Odin the good magician god and the miracles of the benevolent Sinterklaas. They both ride a white horse in the skies,wear a white beard, a cloak and a spear/cosier. They both have black helpers. They try to support goodness and dispel evil through knowledge. And remember the poetry part? And the blend with Roman influences shows itself in a December feast with gaiety and presents.)

In the 17th century Dutchmen emigrated to Northern America and brought their tradition of Sinterklaas with. In the new English speaking world the name changed into Santa Claus. In 1930 a designer for the Coca-Cola Company was asked to draw attractive advertisements for this drink that did not sell well in wintertime. He had to use the company colors red and white and create some cosy type. He remembered the Dutch Santa Claus with his white dress, red cloak, long white beard, kindness and benevolence. The eight-legged horse was replaced for eight flying reindeer. A punishing Black Jack was inappropriate in this concept, so he disappeared. This new Santa Claus became a big hit. He became so popular that right now in Europe he is serious competition for Sinterklaas. That’s understandable: no more fear for punishing Black Jacks, and you no longer have to sweat on suitable poetry for your gifts. And the search for human perfection of Odin? Well, can’t we just have that as a Christmas present from Santa Claus?

http://www.realmagick.com/articles/14/2014.html

Hersir
Wednesday, October 29th, 2008, 01:09 PM
Magick? sounds like some hippie stuff to me

forkbeard
Wednesday, October 29th, 2008, 02:09 PM
I always thought of Santa as more of a Thor type charcter. Fat, Jolly, beery, friendly , quite unlike grim odin.

Loddfafner
Wednesday, October 29th, 2008, 07:02 PM
I always thought of Santa as more of a Thor type charcter. Fat, Jolly, beery, friendly , quite unlike grim odin.

Santa is drawn from different European traditions, some closer to Odin survivals such as England's Father Xmas and the Dutch Sinterclaas, while others especially the Swedish one with the goats is clearly a Thor figure.

Ediruc
Friday, December 18th, 2009, 07:25 PM
Hey, I'm just wondering if Santa Clause has any ancient connection to Odin and Vainamoinen, the bearded, old man-gods of Norse and Finnish Mythology? Odin and Vainamoinen wander the world, similar to Santa wandering the world, giving gifts.

Thanks! :D

Hersir
Friday, December 18th, 2009, 07:36 PM
I thought santa clause come from coca cola?
In norwegian and also in scandinavian folklore we have the "nisse" or "tomte", which was used as inspiration for the modern santa.
The nisse lived by farms and people had to put out porrigde to them or else they would do tricks. If treated well they helped on the farm and the animals thrived better. The word nisse is from a word about forefathers, so in a way its your forefathers who help and guard at the farm.

Some priests both in Norway and Denmark say that the nisse/tomte is a satanic creature and we should stop using it:thumbdown

velvet
Friday, December 18th, 2009, 08:08 PM
Yeah, well, 'satan' means enemy, they might be right that nisse are hostile to christianity :D


However, the figure collected many characteristics from different folk tales / mythologies, but the concrete 'person' Santa Claus goes back almost 1000 years, to a russian pope with the name Nikolaus. Both, the 'Nikolaus' / St. Nicholas holyday (dec 6) in Germany and some other countries and Santa Claus / x-mas go back to this one.

But in christian tradition this wasnt meant as a holyday for giving, celebrating x-mas is a relatively new thing and goes back only about 150 years, when a German baker wanted to push his sells. Then the x-mas machinery started, first with special cakes (ginger biscuits) for Nikolaus, then soon, fueled by the expanding industrialisation and growing of cities, for x-mas too.

Like so often, christianity merged with the still existing (heathen) folk tradition of Jul. Jul originally was a spring fest, but was already moved to the midwinter night (dec 25) in early centuries of christianisation to reduce heathen solar years fests. The tradition of giving gifts in that time stayed though. However, as said, the actual merging of both is not very old.

Ediruc
Friday, December 18th, 2009, 09:34 PM
I thought santa clause come from coca cola?


hmm..and on that note...I just realized I spelled "claus" with an e at the end...doi!! ;)

Nordlander
Friday, December 18th, 2009, 10:55 PM
Yeah, well, 'satan' means enemy, they might be right that nisse are hostile to christianity :D


However, the figure collected many characteristics from different folk tales / mythologies, but the concrete 'person' Santa Claus goes back almost 1000 years, to a russian pope with the name Nikolaus. Both, the 'Nikolaus' / St. Nicholas holyday (dec 6) in Germany and some other countries and Santa Claus / x-mas go back to this one.

But in christian tradition this wasnt meant as a holyday for giving, celebrating x-mas is a relatively new thing and goes back only about 150 years, when a German baker wanted to push his sells. Then the x-mas machinery started, first with special cakes (ginger biscuits) for Nikolaus, then soon, fueled by the expanding industrialisation and growing of cities, for x-mas too.

Like so often, christianity merged with the still existing (heathen) folk tradition of Jul. Jul originally was a spring fest, but was already moved to the midwinter night (dec 25) in early centuries of christianisation to reduce heathen solar years fests. The tradition of giving gifts in that time stayed though. However, as said, the actual merging of both is not very old.
The Germanic peoples main enemy IS christianity

Ulfvaldr
Friday, December 18th, 2009, 11:15 PM
The Germanic peoples main enemy IS christianity

Truer words where never spoke

Ulfvaldr
Saturday, December 19th, 2009, 09:53 AM
Numerous parallels have been drawn surrounding the figure of Odin, a major god amongst the Germanic Peoples prior to their Christianization. Since many of these elements are unrelated to Christianity, there are numerous theories regarding the pagan origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Santa Claus.

Odin was sometimes recorded, at the native Germanic holiday of Yule, as leading a great hunting party through the sky. Two books from Iceland, the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, describe Odin as riding an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir that could leap great distances, giving rise to comparisons to Santa Claus' reindeer.

Odin's appearance was often similar to that of Saint Nicholas, being depicted as an old, mysterious man with a beard.

According to Phyllis Siefker, children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy. This practice survived in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas as a result of the process of Christianization and can be still seen in the modern practice of the hanging of stockings at the chimney in some homes. Children still place their straw filled shoes or stockings by the chimney every winter night, and are rewards with candy and gifts. This practice in turn came to the United States through the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam prior to the British seizure in the 17th century, and evolved into the hanging of socks or stockings at the fireplace. In many regions of Austria and former Austro-Hungarian Italy (Friuli, city of Trieste) children are given sweets and gifts on Saint Nicholas's Day (San Niccolò in Italian), in accordance with the Catholic calendar, December the 6th.

Numerous other influences from the pre-Christian Germanic winter celebrations have continued into modern Christmas celebrations such as the Christmas ham, Yule Goat, Yule logs and potentially the Christmas tree.

Hersir
Saturday, December 19th, 2009, 03:01 PM
Where do they use the yule log? Never heard about in Norway. The yule goat is very popular here. One other old heathen tradition here that is still used is to feed the little birds and help them through winter and to set out a bowl of porridge for the nisse/tomte.

This summer when I was at my family's farm in northern Norway, my mother had lost a silver neck jewellery. She was very fond of it and she looked everywhere. I told her to put out a bowl of porridge. The next day all the porrigde was eaten up, and her jewellery was on the marble plate right outside the front door. True story!

Crazyhorse
Saturday, December 19th, 2009, 03:39 PM
My wife and I lived in Deutschland from April 2000 - July 2001; then returned to Bavaria in July 2004 and stayed until June 2008 for my profession. I miss and loved the Christmas Markets in the "Fatherland" - especially Nurnberg. Deutshcland is truly the home for Christmas and the traditions of Western Culture. No doubt that there are spillovers from the days before Christianity which were adopted for cultural and traditional reasons.
I was witness to a Pagan hunting tradition with German hunters in a Bavarian forest back in NOV 05, which reminded me alot of my own American culture. After a "Grune" hunt, the hunters laid out their prizes neatly on an open clearing in the forest, surrounded on all four corners by hollowed out pine logs in the upright position which were burning on the inside with a nice fire, while the hunters dipped pine needles in the blood of their prey and placed them in their traditional hats. It was interesting and I felt honored to have been allowed to participate. I remember my first Deer kill and drinking the blood as a Native American tradition allowing the spirit of the deer to be in my soul. Thanks for sharing - our stockings are neatly lined up over the fire place on our ranch waiting for ST Nicholas to visit during the Yule-tide season.

"Hohe Weihnachten"!

Hersir
Tuesday, December 22nd, 2009, 02:58 PM
According to Phyllis Siefker, children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat.

Sugar was not known here in christian times, it only arrived with the crusades and was not known for common people before around the 1500's. The normnal sweetener here was honey and I doubt our ancestors filled their boots with that.


Jólnir (Old Norse "yule figure") is another name for Odin
http://www.julidannevang.dk/julehistorie/julemanden2.shtml

Ediruc
Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009, 09:57 PM
I find it kinda ironic our Christian Jolly ol' Saint Nick has his origins rooted in the one-eyed, wine-drinking, spear-wielding, giant-slaying, rune-magician, war-god, that we all know and love, Odin :thumbup

And thanks for the merge, btw!!