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exit
Friday, October 10th, 2008, 05:47 PM
When it is said that Odin gave one of his eyes in exchange for enlightenment this could only be symbolical. The two eyes traditionally correspond with the sun and the moon and in another aspect to reason and sentiment, whereas the third eye pertains to the intellect. The eye that Odin gave must refer to the individuality as a whole or in other words the sentiment and lunar state, since reason if it is to be true at all must reflect the supra-rational intellect; hence, truth belongs not to the person but to the cosmic law. Furthermore, it is clear that his sacrifice has nothing to do with magic or divination which only pertains to the lunar subtle state (prophecy proper to a Seer is not the same as to foresee), for to transcend is to pass beyond forms and therefore beyond the lunar sphere of the senses. And this is the meaning of sacrifice par excellence, which is to renounce individuality in order to attain the supra-individual universal order proper to the divine personality. The Eye of Knowledge is beyond duality and temporality, it is the Eternal Present, the Center of the Wheel, and not one of its spokes.

Athalwulf
Friday, October 10th, 2008, 10:25 PM
The sacrifice of Odin's eye is thought to be literal. The same goes for Tyr's sacrifice of his hand to Fenrir.

I've never heard of the eyes being symbolic of the sun and the moon.

rainman
Friday, October 17th, 2008, 01:13 AM
Self sacrafice is a theme of Germanic myth. Sacrafice for the community, for growth for higher states of being. Most major Gods have some story of sacrafice. The biggest one is Odin sacraficing himself to himself.

It shows us that we need to sacrafice for personal growth. Also on a communal level as well as species that cares more about higher ideals and the folk than the individual will be more successful. You have to die to be reborn.

Psychonaut
Friday, October 17th, 2008, 01:46 AM
You have to die to be reborn.

I agree with you that sacrifice is part and parcel of the Germanic mythos, but resurrection is not. inn's sacrifice is not, in any of the original sources, described as death and resurrection. This is only, tentatively, applied to Baldr. However, this is a heavily contested example and is believed by many scholars to be a clear example of Christian influence.

Carl
Saturday, October 18th, 2008, 07:24 PM
There does seem to be so much wild speculation about these things - either mythical or factual, take your choice! Why do you always seek to complicate a fairly straight forward story with such improbable elaborations, exit? Isnt ordinary magic good enough for you?


Just read through the first two 'sacred' books of the old Edda, Voluspa and Havamal ; the answers are there! Not much need to elaborate if you really want to understand. Otherwise you make things worse!

In review :

The "self-sacrifice" or giving was for a purpose- it was a part of Odin's extensive new quest for wisdom. He had already learnt some runic 'songs' from the giants within his own family......He hung 'nine long dark nights' upon that tree, he caught upp runes 'from below' and then fell back again. He wasn't aiming to die; it was, if you like ,part of an extended Shamanic ritual of knowledge-seeking. He grew therefrom....according to the key texts already sited.

As for Mimir's Well, it was part of the bargain with Mimir, the wise giant guardian of that sacred well of Wisdom. An eye for far-seeing if you like ( why else was he afterwards 'the one eyed God'? ).... and all this since Odinn needed to see ahead quite a long way, to be the better of impending problems to come! :oanieyes

If only we could be so wise....

exit
Saturday, October 18th, 2008, 09:04 PM
There does seem to be so much wild speculation about these things - either mythical or factual, take your choice! Why do you always seek to complicate a fairly straight forward story with such improbable elaborations, exit? Isnt ordinary magic good enough for you?


I'm not sure what you mean by this. It is not my wild speculation, and by no means do I think that the gods were actual humans. It's not a straight forward story therefore, and my commentary is not improbable, nor is the tale abouy "magic" as I already explained. Everything of a divine nature seems to be labeled as a "Christian influence." But if this is so then I might as well convert to Christianity as I have no intention of worshiping nature and nor do many others like me. If I am wrong then don't just say so, I require proof. which goes for everyone who replied to this thread.

Lundmanus
Saturday, October 18th, 2008, 11:13 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by this. It is not my wild speculation, and by no means do I think that the gods were actual humans. It's not a straight forward story therefore, and my commentary is not improbable, nor is the tale abouy "magic" as I already explained. Everything of a divine nature seems to be labeled as a "Christian influence." But if this is so then I might as well convert to Christianity as I have no intention of worshiping nature and nor do many others like me. If I am wrong then don't just say so, I require proof. which goes for everyone who replied to this thread.

On the other hand: Christendom is largely based on Aryan mythology, not least the self sacrifice theme.

exit
Sunday, October 19th, 2008, 04:11 PM
On the other hand: Christendom is largely based on Aryan mythology, not least the self sacrifice theme.

Yes. And we see that Odin is often identified with Hermes/Mercury as the messenger and psychopomp who guides the souls through the afterlife. But Odin is more than just Mercury, as Grimm records


Wld, Wld, Wld!
Heavens giant knows what happens,
Looking down from heaven,
Providing full jugs and sheaves.
Many a plant grows in the woods.
He is not born and grows not old.
Wld, Wld, Wld!

It was only in the later Christian period that the Nordic tradition lost its divine component, and the gods were made into historical personages. There was even an old Saxon baptismal vow which reads


I renounce all the words and works of the devil, Thunear, Wōden and Saxnōt, and all those fiends that are their associates.

So, if anything, the Christian influence would downplay the divine elements of Odin, and of all rivalries to Christianity, rather than make them divine.

Pino
Sunday, October 19th, 2008, 06:42 PM
the main difference between the sacrafice is Christian sacrafice is about submitting yourself to God to avoid eternel punishment, not for the betterment of your people and community.

the story of TYR is a perfect example of seeing the community and your people as far more important than your own hand! A Christian version of this story would be sombody putting there hand in the wolfs mouth because God orderd him to, a bit like the story of the Father who has orderd to murder his own Son just because God told him to as a way of testing his faith.

Carl
Sunday, October 19th, 2008, 07:12 PM
But it still isnt clarified what you mean by Sacrifice. Those who think its like the crucifixion (!!):rofl - clearly haven't understood that he "fell down (to 'earth') again" , with that major task now accomplished.

"...nam ek upp rnar
œpandi nam
fell ek aptr aan ."

Havamal. 139

Thenceforeward is Odinn the Lord of Runes ( Rnar)


If it is Odinn's eye then, yes, it 'was' , in order that he might drink freely of the waters of Mimir's magic well and so gain even better foresight ... or insight. He was after this episode, the one eyed God....all the way up to Wagner and beyond, into all that will, or ought , to become!

Both of these are very important stages in Odinn's quest. Yes, he was "born".... the details are given in some of the earliest pagan (transcribed) texts.... starting with Voluspa, Edda 1. How can it be that the Christian Grimm should take precedent there? The divine Grim would most surely not want to deny his own origin?!!

The real mystery remains.... did he finally die.... or was that only how it seemed to her at that time?

Pino
Sunday, October 19th, 2008, 07:48 PM
perhaps the story suggests that Wisdom comes with a price?

exit
Sunday, October 19th, 2008, 08:24 PM
If it is Odinn's eye then, yes, it 'was' , in order that he might drink freely of the waters of Mimir's magic well and so gain even better foresight ... or insight.

I don't agree with the term magic. What is involved here in the sacrifice is passing beyond temporal mode and therefore beyond use of the senses (and therefore not foreseeing an individual future), one then comes to a realization in simultaneous mode by use of a "sense of eternity" in the ether (hence instantaneous all-knowing). The center of the being/world is where the "Will of Heaven" manifests, and though the center is not localized one can refer to an earthly paradise as Asgard descends to Midgard, which applies not only to a being but also to a world cycle; for at the end of this cycle we start over and return to a primordial beginning, but it is active for one who realizes it in himself. Check out Guenon's Symbolism of the Cross especially the chapter on the "Resolution of Opposites." And remember that death and rebirth refers also to meditation since this can be realized also while living. That is why in all the mystery traditions initiation was a death and rebirth and at the same time was a sacrifice. Also, if we take the runes as being part of the great wheel, Odin would reside in the middle or axle, just as Aristotle's "unmoved mover" who directs the universe. If one were on the other hand to forsee an individual event this would imply being on one of the spokes and not in the center; it would also be psychic, utilizing the senses, and therefore not spiritual.