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Marcus
Sunday, September 28th, 2008, 10:13 AM
Nikolay Valuev
http://www.stargods.org/TheyLiveNikolaiValuevEyes2.jpg
http://www.photochart.com/data/media/9/Nikolai_Valuev.jpghttp://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/chris_mannix/08/31/valuev/p1_valuev2.jpg


Leo Tolstoy
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/tolstoy/leo/tolstoy.jpg
http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/tolstoy-leo-2.jpghttp://www.observer.com/files/imagecache/article/files/tolstoy.jpg

Ĉmeric
Sunday, September 28th, 2008, 03:59 PM
The first one reminds me more of Neanderthal then CM.

Marcus
Sunday, September 28th, 2008, 04:35 PM
Valuev is indeed robust and posses heavy brows aswell as deep-set-in eyes, but other then that he is very different. For instance he clearly lacks prognathism and his nose is not as broad and low as it was the case for the Neanderthals. He is most likely an unreduced CM.

Neanderthal reconstruction
http://www.gonzalobarr.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/dumb-neanderthal.jpghttp://www.gay-bible.org/blogstuff/2007/2007%2009%2028%20A.jpghttp://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/images/neanderthal.jpg

Neanderthal next to a modern man
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/10/26/neanderthal_narrowweb__300x340,0.jpg


Cro- Magnon
http://updatecenter.britannica.com/eb/image?binaryId=44397&rendTypeId=4http://www.combecapelle.com/img/gerassimov.jpg

Valuev
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Oct-14-Sat-2006/photos/valuev.jpghttp://english.sport-express.ru/files/ie/6_217_FULL_valuev2-b.jpg

Rik
Sunday, September 28th, 2008, 04:58 PM
He is most likely an unreduced CM.



Most likely ? He is ! No trace of reducing in him. He must have longstanding pure CM lineage.

SuuT
Sunday, September 28th, 2008, 05:05 PM
Neanderthal next to a modern man
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/10/26/neanderthal_narrowweb__300x340,0.jpg

Lionel Richie next to a modern man
http://www.therichardparkco.com/images/Lionel&Richard.jpg



Hmmmmmmmmm.....

Beornulf
Sunday, September 28th, 2008, 08:43 PM
Nikolay Valuev
http://www.stargods.org/TheyLiveNikolaiValuevEyes2.jpg


It looks like a sledge-hammer was taken to his head as a child. I've never seen a facial/skull structure such as his.

Agrippa
Sunday, September 28th, 2008, 09:45 PM
Valuev is a pathological case of severe Acromegaly, this has nothing to do with his racial make up. Insofar Valuev is typical for nothing but his pathological condition and irrelevant for any form of speculation about his Cromagnoid or Neandertaloid heritage.

That Neandertals had very full lips is rather unlikely, since primitive variants today have rather thin lips, like the Australid and Bambutid. Prognathy is another matter and a primitive trait, though also simply related to very large teeth of course, which has to be considered (f.e. in Australids).

Marcus
Monday, September 29th, 2008, 01:52 PM
Valuev is a pathological case of severe Acromegaly, this has nothing to do with his racial make up. Insofar Valuev is typical for nothing but his pathological condition and irrelevant for any form of speculation about his Cromagnoid or Neandertaloid heritage.

Many have suggested that his looks has to do with his size. But if you look at Yao Ming (who is even bigger then him) he doesn´t have that look
http://images.askmen.com/galleries/men/yao-ming/pictures/yao-ming-picture-2.jpg

Valuevs look has to do with him being unreduced CM. Most modern CM have many other influences which reduce their archaic traits.


That Neandertals had very full lips is rather unlikely, since primitive variants today have rather thin lips, like the Australid and Bambutid. Prognathy is another matter and a primitive trait, though also simply related to very large teeth of course, which has to be considered (f.e. in Australids).

Hmm, but whites have also very thin lips, Infact it is even a typical white feature. Based on your argument wouldn´t our thin lips also make us "primitive"?
Also many Cro-Magnons have big teeths aswell.

Agrippa
Wednesday, October 1st, 2008, 06:39 PM
Many have suggested that his looks has to do with his size. But if you look at Yao Ming (who is even bigger then him) he doesn´t have that look

To begin with, not every tall individual is acromegal, this individual f.e. isnt - to end it, Acromegaly has also other physical symptoms, namely those Valuev has and there are even MUCH shorter acromegal individuals, f.e. because the disease began later, with the exact same CHANGES in the craniofacial area, because there are parts of the cranium and face, as well as distal body parts, hands and feets in particular, which can grow even after the adult stage if the hypophysis produces to much growth hormones, like its typical for the acromegal condition and cases.


Hmm, but whites have also very thin lips, Infact it is even a typical white feature. Based on your argument wouldn´t our thin lips also make us "primitive"?

No. To begin with its not a very important trait and most individuals as well as racial types have different traits of different (progressive-infantile-primitive) character. So the trait of very thin lips, especially if being combined with a broad mouth, is primitive, an individual possessing it doesnt have to be, if f.e. all other traits are progressive, whereas a Negrid with thicker lips but otherwise primarily primitive traits would be primitive.

Its not just types which can be progressive-infantile-primitive, not even primarily so, but traits. Simply put, an individual with more progressive than other traits is progressive and so on...


Also many Cro-Magnons have big teeths aswell.

Among early Protoeuropoids primitive craniofacial traits were still more common than among modern Nordid, Mediterranid and Dinarid forms f.e. Additionally large teeth are also related to the diet of the human form in question and probably more common among otherwise progressive forms which live in a cold area and eat more often meat which is difficult to chew, probably even raw - thats one of the reasons for certain Mongoloids to have larger teeth one could speculate.

And of course the large teeth are not the only reason for prognathy, as I already wrote in an older thread here.

TheGreatest
Thursday, October 2nd, 2008, 02:16 AM
Anyone going to post an example of a Russian Cromagnid? *Crickets*


This thread is nothing more but an example of pseduo-science and nitpicking. Valulev is a Tatar (not an ethnic Russian) and Tolstoy in his youth was the spitting image of Matt Damon.

Agrippa
Thursday, October 2nd, 2008, 09:39 AM
Eastern European Cromagnoids:
Eastcromagnid (with the special variant "kurganoid"):

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3591/nadezhdaukr174kq7.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nadezhdaukr174kq7.jpg)
("Nadezhda" - Ukraine, 174 cm, eyes grey)

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2913/tursunov04fr9.jpg
(Dimitry Tursunov - Russia, 185 cm)

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/3508/joannakrupapicture8qs7.th.jpg (http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=joannakrupapicture8qs7.jpg)
(Joanna Krupa - Poland, 170 cm, "kurganoid")

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/3803/alexandrefimovek2.th.jpg (http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alexandrefimovek2.jpg)
(Alexandr (-er) Efimov - Russia), "kurganoid")

Westbaltids in my scheme are also CromagnOID and comparable to certain Borreby-variants in Northern Europe, just partly brachycephalised.

Marcus
Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 03:45 PM
I think it has been a misunderstanding of the thread. By Cro-magnon I meant the "unreduced" ones like Borreby and Phalians. The "Cro- magnons" above that you posted, Agrippa looks like they have other influences. I´m not however sure if the Borreby and Phalian types are founded in a high extend among the Russians.

Oswiu
Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 04:17 PM
My droog Igor?
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2446/igoryoktl7.jpg

Agrippa
Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 05:14 PM
I think it has been a misunderstanding of the thread. By Cro-magnon I meant the "unreduced" ones like Borreby and Phalians. The "Cro- magnons" above that you posted, Agrippa looks like they have other influences. I´m not however sure if the Borreby and Phalian types are founded in a high extend among the Russians.

Might I explain what I understand under (at least relatively) "unreduced", namely very robust - primarily robust boned (!) - tall individuals with large measurements and classic proportions, which has to mean dolicho- to mesocephaly.

The first two individuals posted are for sure much less reduced than many Dalofaelids from elsewhere and most Borreby-variants.

What I called "Kurganoid" refers to largely Cromagnoid variants with a leptomorphic and mostly Nordoid/Nordiform tendency, especially if its about the facial features and the nasal shape in particular.

Tursunov is mostly Cromagnid and "Nadezhda" has, going after this picture, no non-Cromagnid traits at all, which is not that common among largely Cromagnoid variants anywhere in Europe. But if looking for some details, you might detect differences which are the result of the general genpool and independent development for quite some time mostly I'd say, thats why I usually refer to individuals like the Ukrainian woman as "Ost/Eastcromagnids" rather than Dalofaelid proper.

We should never forget, that there can be a forth and back of robustness and progressive-mature vs. infantile-reduced traits, depending on the selective pressures and partly even living conditions working on a population.

If you want to see brachycephalised Cromagnoids similar to the Borreby/Cromagno-Alpinoid variants, these are Westbaltids which fall essentially in the same general category of Cromagnoid forms, here examples from the Baltic people:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6236/rolandaspaksasun8.th.jpg (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rolandaspaksasun8.jpg)
(Rolandas Paksas)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3417/girdauskassauliusnr1.jpg
(Girdaus Kassaulius)

Marcus
Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Might I explain what I understand under (at least relatively) "unreduced", namely very robust - primarily robust boned (!) - tall individuals with large measurements and classic proportions, which has to mean dolicho- to mesocephaly.

Yes, togheter with prominent brows and deep-set-in eyes.


We should never forget, that there can be a forth and back of robustness and progressive-mature vs. infantile-reduced traits, depending on the selective pressures and partly even living conditions working on a population.

But can we say that Cro- Magnons have a mature look, more so then the Alpines and several meditteranian types?


If you want to see brachycephalised Cromagnoids similar to the Borreby/Cromagno-Alpinoid variants, these are Westbaltids which fall essentially in the same general category of Cromagnoid forms, here examples from the Baltic people:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6236/rolandaspaksasun8.th.jpg (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rolandaspaksasun8.jpg)
(Rolandas Paksas)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3417/girdauskassauliusnr1.jpg
(Girdaus Kassaulius)

These are better examples. But I wonder do you have any Russian examples that are pred. Dalofaelids? And if you have do you have some female examples?


My droog Igor?
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2446/igoryoktl7.jpg

He has a very Russian look

Agrippa
Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 11:50 PM
But can we say that Cro- Magnons have a mature look, more so then the Alpines and several meditteranian types?

Alpinids are in a way the infantile-reduced version of a Cromagnid, so thats the fundamental difference between those too, speaking about body and head proportions in particular.

As for the Mediterranoid forms, one can't say that for altogether, but the difference is in any case not as big as between Cromagnid and Alpinid with extreme Alpinid, Baltid and Lappid forms being on one end of the Europid spectrum, namely the infantile-reduced-pyknomorphic one, and Nordid, Atlantomediterranid, Dinarid, Cromagnid, Iranid and Nordindid on the other, the progressive-mature-robust end, with the gracile-reduced leptodolichomorphs (Gracilmediterranid, Gracilindid) being more on their side by maturity, but somewhat shifted towards the infantile end, just slightly but still.

Van De Poele
Friday, November 6th, 2009, 12:31 PM
Nikolay Valuev
http://www.stargods.org/TheyLiveNikolaiValuevEyes2.jpg






Cro-Magnon strain is not the only explanation to this phenomenum, there is another problem here.

:O

Ar-Man-En
Sunday, November 22nd, 2009, 01:40 AM
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/3803/alexandrefimovek2.th.jpg (http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alexandrefimovek2.jpg)
(Alexandr (-er) Efimov - Russia), "kurganoid")


Sorry for my ignorance, but what's mean kurganoid? That's related with kurgan peoples and what admixture is that ? :|

Agrippa
Friday, December 4th, 2009, 02:30 PM
Sorry for my ignorance, but what's mean kurganoid? That's related with kurgan peoples and what admixture is that ? :|

I use that term for those variants which resemble one of the dominant variants among the Kurgan people, which was generally speaking rather Cromagnoid, but had significant Nordoid deviations, especially if its about the facial features, since they had especially a longer, more prominent and often even convex nose. Finer and more differentiated-progressive features than the average Cromagnoids you can observe in the Western parts of Europe and of course much more progressive-refined, more Nordoid-Mediterranoid in character, than those of North Eastern Europe, which were partly extremely robust and protomorphic-archaic, coarse Cromagnoids, the ancestors of the mass of todays Osteuropids I guess.

So its important to stress the difference between those Kurganoids and the other Eastern European Cromagnoids, which were partly different, yet the Kurganoid form as a rule had those refined and more classic Europid features and was less coarse-protomorphic.

rainman
Friday, December 4th, 2009, 07:44 PM
Yeah these "primitive" features are more Neanderthal like (Neanderthals have no relation to aboriginals by the way they only inhabited Europe and the middle East. Aboriginals descend from an African proto population). Cro-Magnon was more or less a Robust Nordic with a slanting forehead (though large), and large face. Nordics are more or less a little smaller, more gracile and evolved form of the Cro-Magnon. The more robust Alpines retain some of the more primitive Cro-Magnon traits and some minor Asiatic influence has influenced modern Europeans (mainly in the south and east) giving some of the smaller, more gracile features).

An interesting web-site on it:
http://www.erichufschmid.net/Neanderthals/More-Neanderthals-4.html

Genetically modern Europeans have little to no relation to Neanderthals. For whatever reason some individuals do seem to exibit some traits from our primitive ancestors though. As I said that link above is quite interesting.

Also Cro-Magnon reconstructions (done honestly) pretty much look like a modern European (we had one posting already done on the first page, but here are some links):

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/31/
http://www.white-history.com/hwr1.htm

Agrippa
Friday, December 4th, 2009, 09:58 PM
Cro-Magnon was more or less a Robust Nordic with a slanting forehead (though large), and large face.

The typical Cromagnids had low and smaller faces, which were just broader and not as deep. The proportional pre-Nordoid forms were Aurignacoid (Combe Capelle and Bruenn as primitive pre-form in the Proto-Europoid populations).


Nordics are more or less a little smaller, more gracile and evolved form of the Cro-Magnon.

They are not smaller, just leaner and not always more gracile neither. Essentially, the Nordid type proper seems to have been a type which is more warm and Neolithic adapted, whereas the Cromagnid/Dalofaelid is able to withstand a colder environment and "was born" as a herder of the wide Northern areas.

Its typical that Aurignacoid/leptodolichomorphic/Mediterranoid in the widest sense morphologies and proportions spread drastically after the end of the last Ice Age, while Cromagnid proper in its more robust and unreduced forms began to retreat.


The more robust Alpines retain some of the more primitive Cro-Magnon traits and some minor Asiatic influence has influenced modern Europeans (mainly in the south and east) giving some of the smaller, more gracile features).

What do you mean with "Asiatic"? Mongolid proper came into Europe in very low numbers and were not constitutive for the Alpinoid spectrum. Uralic influences in Lappid-Eastbaltid is another matter, as are Aralids here and there.


An interesting web-site on it:
http://www.erichufschmid.net/Neanderthals/More-Neanderthals-4.html

If they look at Valuev for Neandertal traits, they are not very competent, as this guy has obvious Akromegaloid traits, which is a condition and not race-related.


Genetically modern Europeans have little to no relation to Neanderthals. For whatever reason some individuals do seem to exibit some traits from our primitive ancestors though. As I said that link above is quite interesting.

Early sapiens and primitive sapiens like Australoids look both more Neandertal like in comparison to the more modern and progressive forms. Thats just because evolution didnt stopped, not because of Neandertal admixture of significant size.


Also Cro-Magnon reconstructions (done honestly) pretty much look like a modern European (we had one posting already done on the first page, but here are some links):

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/31/
http://www.white-history.com/hwr1.htm[/QUOTE]

Indeed, they were more progressive than many modern racial forms elsewhere. We shouldnt forget that Eurasian evolution lasted, when they moved into Europe, at least 60.000 years and that they probably descendend from forms which were already more progressive East Africans, more progressive than earlier waves and other Africans outside of the dynamic East African centre.

Horagalles
Saturday, January 9th, 2010, 06:52 PM
I use that term for those variants which resemble one of the dominant variants among the Kurgan people, which was generally speaking rather Cromagnoid, but had significant Nordoid deviations, especially if its about the facial features, since they had especially a longer, more prominent and often even convex nose. Finer and more differentiated-progressive features than the average Cromagnoids you can observe in the Western parts of Europe ....
Wouldn't that actually make up for a Faelid? The examples shown do seem to be a bit softer then that.

Agrippa
Sunday, January 10th, 2010, 03:41 PM
Wouldn't that actually make up for a Faelid? The examples shown do seem to be a bit softer then that.

In my scheme Dalofaelid is the more or less unaltered Cromagnid stock.

What some call Faelish (Cromagnoid - with Nordoid influences) is usually not the same, but can be same so to say. The reason is we deal with a population, variants, which are more harmonised, they just have a specific standard, with the facial features being basically Atlanto-Nordid, just the frame somewhat more Cromagnoid and being more robust.

So I think, closest are the "Anglo-Saxon" phenotypes in the West, if just using those with the more Nordid features, but more robust-Cromagnoid frame.

teutonicscult
Thursday, August 19th, 2010, 06:48 AM
Neanderthal next to a modern man
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/10/26/neanderthal_narrowweb__300x340,0.jpg

Lionel Richie next to a modern man
http://www.therichardparkco.com/images/Lionel&Richard.jpg



Hmmmmmmmmm.....

Or even Carles Puyol of Spain:


http://www.ligafutbol.net/wp-content/2009/07/carles_puyol.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01676/carles_puyol2_1676446c.jpg

Northern Paladin
Thursday, August 19th, 2010, 06:51 AM
The first one reminds me more of Neanderthal then CM.

yeah kind of, but Neanderthals didn't have chins and this guy does.