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View Full Version : Do You Mourn The Ascent From Primitivism?



Cythraul
Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 10:03 AM
I suppose the very way I worded the thread title encapsulates both points of view - 'mourn' suggesting something good lost and 'ascent' suggesting something worse replaced by something better.

Do you have romantic views of the distant past, or are you thankful to have been born in this here day and age? I'm not talking about an early 20th century golden age or anything that recent - Do you envy those who lived and died prior to the Middle Ages?

I was going to make this topic a poll, but I anticipate any replies being beyond 'yes' and 'no'.

Oskorei
Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 10:26 AM
In several ways I can see that the past was "better". Our distant ancestors, the hunters of post-glacial Europe, had a much closer relationship both to nature and to the spiritual, and their lives involved a natural heroism and tribal solidarity that has been long lost since.

The anarcho-primitivists, at least in Sweden, has degenerated into political correctness, but there is several useful points in the works of people like Zerzan and Kazcinsky.

But being inspired by the archeo-futurism of Guillaume Faye, I believe that we can resurrect many of the better ideals of our ancestors even in the future. Neo-luddism, and the abolishment of technology, would only make us easy prey for other peoples.

Psychonaut
Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 10:45 AM
Do you have romantic views of the distant past, or are you thankful to have been born in this here day and age? I'm not talking about an early 20th century golden age or anything that recent - Do you envy those who lived and died prior to the Middle Ages?

I have a romantic view of the not so distant past. I would give anything to put myself in the shoes of my aristocratic ancestors who lived in Switzerland, Germany and France during the late 16th and early 17th centuries. The period of time that bore witness to the peak of Gothic architecture and the birth of Baroque music is, in my opinion, the highest point that the West has ever reached.

Cythraul
Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 11:37 AM
Can we seperate what has always been inextricably linked - technological advancement and spiritual detriment? I'm not so sure. Those two developments, one positive, one negative, needn't be proportionate to one another, yet I feel our modern world proves that they are, in practice.

Something I feel is very important to this discussion is how accurate our view of history is. Romantics are often told that they look to the ancient world through rose-tinted spectacles, but my studies have shown the opposite to be true. After all, wouldn't it be in the best interests of our current authorities to make it appear as though we have it good today compared to yesteryear - in the same way that they make it appear as though we have it good in our country compared to elsewhere? Our ancient ancestors were scientists, philosophers, astrologists, healers, builders and warriors. What have we gained since then? Is modern medicine really the pinnacle of healing? Does the physical fitness of our highest paid footballers really compare to that of ancient warriors? How about the average person? Are we really better off in offices working towards some obscure goal instead of tending our land or building homes for the benefit of our own community?

Whichever way I look at the subject, I'm drawn to the same conclusion - life in the 20/21st century is not the best it has ever been.

BeornWulfWer
Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 03:21 PM
I have always wanted to experience the hunter gatherer stage of mankind.

Yes, it was violent and short lived. With many risks of disease; not to mention the very realistic chances each day of damaging yourself and never recovering.
There is no secure second chances in this era.

You survive or you die.

The aspects of this life which appeal to me and make me believe it to be a period I would like to experience is the strong bonds and lack of civilised pressures.

Your day would consist of waking up with your family and close kin. You would perhaps joke and laugh, or have discussions with your family. No rush to go catch your daily travel arrangements. No alienation of oneself and soul by being encased in one soulless procession to earn money to buy food and objects which are free anyway. No need to work to pay for the right to live in a house which, for all things said, you could build yourself. No devotion to grinding your life away to pay for taxes which benefit people you don't know and have no love or thought to.

Your whole purpose when you leave your home will be to successfully pull down and kill an animal to feed for none but your own.

The women and old of the family will invariably be foraging for wild plants to harvest and perhaps even catching small animals such as hares to boost the chances of being fed that very day.

Others may be at home teaching others who are too young to hunt or forage to create items which will benefit them and their family.
Skin an animal, create a warm outfit to clothe a member. Learn how to create weapons in which all your life would depend upon being near perfection for its purpose.

The men on the hunt would be proficient at their skills and the younger members would be learning and adapting their skills by watching and learning. The skills of the elders would be handed down and therefore ensuring the survival of their family, their lineage.

The trust and respect for knowledge would be paramount. The family will not eat that night if you have but only one petulant and insincere member of your group. The group would hunt as one, slowly tracking their meal by constant communication which each other. No time for loud mouthed individuals who think they know best. You listen to every word your elder is saying and to every instinct your body is telling you.

Upon the successful completion of your hunt, perhaps the carving and skinning of the animal would begin straight away whilst others track back home to gain more hands to carry home the prize meal.

The successful hunt of a Mammoth would mean perhaps the next day you would not need to hunt. You have enough food to eat well and extend the strength of your family bonds.

Play with the children. Tell them stories. Regale them with bravery shown that very day by you or your family members in the hunt.

Ensure your love and bond with your partner is close and personal.



I don't think mankind is supposed to live the way it does at present. To much has been emphasized on appeasing the greater of society which, as I said, you will never meet or engage with. The emphasis seems to detail you committing to laws and regulations which do not necessarily benefit or exceed your place in life.

The purpose of man and mankind is to procreate and ensure the survival of their offspring.

Anything which came after or during this is pure entertainment and/or needless.

Stormraaf
Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 03:27 PM
Can we seperate what has always been inextricably linked - technological advancement and spiritual detriment? I'm not so sure. Those two developments, one positive, one negative, needn't be proportionate to one another, yet I feel our modern world proves that they are, in practice.

If by "spiritual detriment" you mean the gradual ditching of religion/mysticism throughout the first world, a difference in opinion, like between me as an atheist and another as a pagan/christian (respectfully), results in flipping this from a negative to a positive thing entirely. As far as I am concerned, there is no downside to technological advancement.


What have we gained since then? Is modern medicine really the pinnacle of healing?

You're not really comparing modern medicine to the shamans of old, are you? I underwent what is today a routine surgical procedure without which, as would have been the case had I lived in ancient times, I would have been dead now. The "healers" of the ancient world would have told me my illness was because of evil spirits. The practices of ancients is comparable to those of tribal third-worlders today, which I ridicule on an almost daily basis. Sorry.

Cythraul
Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 07:59 PM
You paint a wonderful picture BeornWulfWer :)


between me as an atheist and another as a pagan/christian (respectfully), results in flipping this from a negative to a positive thing entirely.
Absolutely. I anticipated two main responses to this question of primitivism - those who romanticize the past and those who feel we have it good. Without deliberately undermining your beliefs, I would suggest that the reason you're sternly atheistic is precisely because you live in the modern times where we have been all but stripped of our life and soul. We have no reason to believe in anything but science because our Priests are corrupt and our ways industrial. According to my beliefs one must be in touch with nature in order to be close with the spirit. To me, it's no wonder so many of us mock spirituality - we're detached from the spirit world and the primary example placed before our eyes by the Church is a soulless shambles. But then you'd probably think me a little bit ignorant for my beliefs ;).


You're not really comparing modern medicine to the shamans of old, are you?
Comparing them? No. The shamans of old did indeed believe that to heal the body one must heal the spirit. We in our modern times treat the body as a spiritless vessel. Very different methods and niether are without their inadequacies. You say you underwent an operation that saved your life and that's great. But in terms of pharmeceuticals, most are geared towards relieving symptoms not ridding the root cause. Shamanic healing works the other way around - attacking as close to the root problem as possible. In my experience, mainly due to the poor treatment my suffering girlfriend has received from western medicine, I have little faith in it. It has proven ill-equipped to solve her problems. The closest to health she has been was when her power animal was identified for her.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I believe there is an agenda to demonize our history - to make it appear barbaric, ignorant and plagued by suffering. Of course we're told that, because if we weren't we'd started to question the barbarism, ignorance and suffering that is rife in our modern times and anarchy would prevail. The ancients studied the stars, knew how to heal the body and spirit, and had the kind of healthy family/community relationships which we can but dream of. Yes, my greatest wish would be that I was born before Christ.

Leofric
Monday, September 22nd, 2008, 01:05 AM
I suppose the very way I worded the thread title encapsulates both points of view - 'mourn' suggesting something good lost and 'ascent' suggesting something worse replaced by something better.

Do you have romantic views of the distant past, or are you thankful to have been born in this here day and age? I'm not talking about an early 20th century golden age or anything that recent - Do you envy those who lived and died prior to the Middle Ages?

I was going to make this topic a poll, but I anticipate any replies being beyond 'yes' and 'no'.

I absolutely mourn it. I am proud of the Wandering Period and our subsequent growth as a people, but I'm afraid our ancestors traded their own souls for glory. I am inclined to think our people were better off before Wandering.

Thrymheim
Monday, September 22nd, 2008, 05:21 AM
I would have liked to live at any time when our people were exploring and/or conquering new lands, I would very much like to return to such a life but I will also freely admit that I would wish to do so with the benefits of modern medicine and electricity. Being female there are many periods that I am very glad I am not a part of but in general I think I would have liked it before the industrial revolution. I often have a Rosy picture of past times, but perhaps that is because the things I enjoy belong to those times and the things I dislike are products of our modern lives, I have no problem with spending the whole day hunting, fishing or gathering and I do do so often, but i loath spending a day indoors working.

Cythraul
Monday, September 22nd, 2008, 08:34 AM
I would very much like to return to such a life but I will also freely admit that I would wish to do so with the benefits of modern medicine and electricity.
It's a common argument isn't it - "You wouldn't like life without modern comforts very much". And perhaps we have all been weakened to require such comforts. Perhaps those comforts are actually the chains that bind us - the reason that most of us dedicate 40 hours a week towards jobs and companies we hate. We sold our souls for those comforts, but even those of us who know this would be hard pressed to completely give up electricity, hot water and medicine. Nevertheless, I do believe we've forsaken our spirit for those things and I'd rather have my spirit back. If I could be reborn into antiquity and have my knowledge of modern comforts erased, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

For now I'll just let books and imagination take me back to those virgin lands, that tribal security, that freedom, those un-hindered starry skies, that ability to hunt and build, that warrior mentality and a time of cultural growth.

Thrymheim
Monday, September 22nd, 2008, 08:53 AM
. and have my knowledge of modern comforts erased, I'd do it in a heartbeat.



Same, the knowledge would have to be erased as knowing what was possible we would soon rebuild. It is strange how one forgets about things that others take for granted, TV would be an example I don't miss it at all (and I don't watch tv on the net either) When I'm computer less I soon forget about it too, so I expect electricity would be the same.

Moody
Friday, October 10th, 2008, 07:43 AM
I suppose the very way I worded the thread title encapsulates both points of view - 'mourn' suggesting something good lost and 'ascent' suggesting something worse replaced by something better.

Do you have romantic views of the distant past, or are you thankful to have been born in this here day and age? I'm not talking about an early 20th century golden age or anything that recent - Do you envy those who lived and died prior to the Middle Ages?



The use of the word 'mourn' reminds of a story of Professor Tolkien who, when pondering on the Norman invasion of England would weep uncontrollably.
He mourned the loss of Anglo-Saxon England at the hands of the brutal and perfidious Normans.

So there is a sense of historical loss that I too feel keenly.

But then there is the feeling of Mythic Loss - yes, the Golden Age syndrome.

But I see this latter as far more positive - it is not remembered with mourning [due perhaps to its hyper-reality, but also due to its ever-present immortality] because it is always thought that it could be re-attained.

History has destroyed our dreams and limited our horizons.
The historical past is gone, dead.

But the mythic past is eternal and there to be retaken and re-ensouled by the brave.

Yes, the heroic among us do not mourn the mythic past - we rather yearn for its eternal return.

Pino
Friday, October 10th, 2008, 02:50 PM
I certainly do mourn it, and it's of my opinion that if we are going to survive then we need to go back to our roots and start living this way again from scratch, we can actually create an even better hunter gatherer society today than what our ancestors had because of the knowledge we have today. I dont think knowledge is corrupt and the knowledge we have today is far superior to that of our ancestors and I do think it can spiritually enlighten us however technology has destroyed our soul and society today is completely alien to that of the old ways.

We now have words in our society like "old fashioned" and "get with the times" as if just because an idea is new it is immediately good and just because an idea is old it is immediately bad and wants to stop our advancement, theres nothing wrong with societys advanceing and making things easier, thats why our ancestors instead of hunting everyday realised it would be easier to capture a few, domesticate them and put them in a caged field and let them breed. I think in Britain our country stopped advanceing spiritually after the Romans came, or rarther after the Romans converted to Christianity came and now today nobody seems to be able to think outside of Roman law or ideology, the old ways are virtually extinct in peoples mind, all modern thought came out of Rome.

Medical advancements today are good yes but most illeness and diseases have come from modern things, I seriously dont think cancer would have exitsed thousands of years ago because they didn't breath in the filth that we do or eat the crap that we do or be as lazy as us, isn't it scientifclly proven that a healthy state of mind is one of the best ways to help combat illness like cancer anyway and you body effectively fights it off it's self? Where as sombody with depression has a seriously lower chance of survival. Being spiritually healthy is a key part of health.

What we need is a good few hundred of us to go out into the Scottish highlands or somthing and start right over, it keeps getting said I dont think it will ever happen though because our Germanic peservation people have adopted the modern thought of being all talk and nobody wanting to take a stand and actually get the ball rolling.

VergesEngst
Thursday, November 12th, 2009, 05:38 PM
I know this topic has been dormant for a little while, but I was browsing through it and find the question very interesting.

None of us has first-hand experience with what it was like to be alive in the 17th century, the 14th century, 2000 years ago, or in pre-history. Looking at these things is like looking at one of those optical-illusion pictures that can be two things, depending on what you focus on: the goblet or the faces (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/GobletIllusion_500.gif), the old woman or the young woman, or the Neker Cube (http://wisebytes.net/illusions/cube.gif). You can look at history in one way and think, "Wow... what a true, real, human, and profoundly satisfying way of life!" Or you can look at history in another way and think that it was stinky, painful, risky, stressful and profoundly unhappy. And no matter what you think you think, you don't know... because you weren't there.

The only analogy that I can think of to make it more clear, is by looking back on my own life. I've gone through many phases, and in essence been many different people: while a teenager, while in college, while in graduate school, while an adult in my 20's, and as an adult in my 30's now. I can look back on any earlier stage and think X was better then but Y was worse then.

But you know what really stands out? At the time it was happening, I was neither more nor less happy. Life simply was what it was. I was happy with the things that worked and unhappy with the things that were not working, but there is no "absolute" difference that I experienced at different phases in life. The only differences I see now are in retrospect: in many ways, they are an illusion created by my perspective, looking back from now.

So I wonder if the same thing is true when looking back over history. We imagine previous eras, using the lenses of today to evaluate them, but of course for those living at the time -- it was only life. The good things were good and the bad things were bad.

And I trust, if any of you magically were transported into that lifestyle, once the novelty wore off, you would feel the same way.

Marcius
Thursday, July 1st, 2010, 08:41 PM
There is much to be said for the anarcho-primitivist/anti-technological perspective.

Especially our innate spiritual connections between ourselves, our families, our "tribes", and our environments.

The Aboriginal peoples of Australia still have their spiritual connection to the universe and the "DreamTime".

We as Folk have lost this connection. In our globalized culture Aboriginal Peoples are permitted such "eccentricities" because truth being told, modern society believes that these are harmless and quaint superstitions.

The fact that they are spiritually true has no relevance in an empirical world.

LadyFirehawk
Friday, July 2nd, 2010, 10:43 AM
In some ways I am a bit of a romantic; however, much of that is tempered by the fact that I'm female and there are many time periods I truly would rather NOT return to. I hate the fact that technology has contributed to such a widespread disconnection from our earthly roots, and unfortunately one of its effects has been to degrade natural ecosystems far too much to make a return to non-technological ways practical.

In other ways I wish I could just jump ahead a few hundred or a few thousand years into the future and hope to the gods that we've gotten to other planets by then-- I write science fiction, though, so of COURSE I would say that. :D (Incidentally, one of the major planets I write about was colonized by Germanic nationalists. Of course, I write about a whole lot of OTHER cultures, too, but overall I project most ethnic groups as having stuck with their own and founded their own respective colonies.)

Wulfhere
Friday, July 2nd, 2010, 12:13 PM
In some ways I am a bit of a romantic; however, much of that is tempered by the fact that I'm female and there are many time periods I truly would rather NOT return to. I hate the fact that technology has contributed to such a widespread disconnection from our earthly roots, and unfortunately one of its effects has been to degrade natural ecosystems far too much to make a return to non-technological ways practical.

In other ways I wish I could just jump ahead a few hundred or a few thousand years into the future and hope to the gods that we've gotten to other planets by then-- I write science fiction, though, so of COURSE I would say that. :D (Incidentally, one of the major planets I write about was colonized by Germanic nationalists. Of course, I write about a whole lot of OTHER cultures, too, but overall I project most ethnic groups as having stuck with their own and founded their own respective colonies.)

If you're interested in an archetypal past in which women wielded spiritual and political power, and our ancestors lived in harmony with the earth, have a look at the Oera Linda Book, which I recently mentioned on a different thread - http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

LadyFirehawk
Friday, July 2nd, 2010, 06:14 PM
If you're interested in an archetypal past in which women wielded spiritual and political power, and our ancestors lived in harmony with the earth, have a look at the Oera Linda Book, which I recently mentioned on a different thread - http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

Oooh, I'll have to check out both the thread and the link. Thank you! :)

On that note, I suppose I wouldn't mind returning to pre-Christian Scandinavia...

GroeneWolf
Friday, July 2nd, 2010, 06:29 PM
have a look at the Oera Linda Book, which I recently mentioned on a different thread - http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

First of all, the contents of the link is radical different from the last time I checked it. Second, you do know that the Oeralinda Book is considered a forgery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda#Skepticism).

Wulfhere
Friday, July 2nd, 2010, 06:32 PM
Oooh, I'll have to check out both the thread and the link. Thank you! :)

On that note, I suppose I wouldn't mind returning to pre-Christian Scandinavia...

Check out the Egtved Girl for an example of a high status pre-Christian Scandinavian woman, whose burial has been dated to 1370 BC - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egtved_Girl (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FEgtved_Girl)


First of all, the contents of the link is radical different from the last time I checked it. Second, you do know that the Oeralinda Book is considered a forgery (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FOera_Linda%23Skepticis m).

There have always been those who have sought to deny any sort of legitimacy to the book, and so preserve the academic status quo. Whatever the provenance of the manuscript, however, it was clearly based on ancient traditions and oral histories.

LadyFirehawk
Friday, July 2nd, 2010, 06:38 PM
First of all, the contents of the link is radical different from the last time I checked it. Second, you do know that the Oeralinda Book is considered a forgery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda#Skepticism).

Hrrrm, I knew something was itching my brain about that title... then I remembered that so-called 'Daughters of Frya' site that made the rounds on pagan forums multiple times.

Face, meet palm. You're going to be GOOD friends.

Forgery or not, though, it's still an interesting read.

GroeneWolf
Friday, July 2nd, 2010, 06:44 PM
Hrrrm, I knew something was itching my brain about that title... then I remembered that so-called 'Daughters of Frya' site that made the rounds on pagan forums multiple times.

Wulfhere's little cult, yes.


Forgery or not, though, it's still an interesting read.

Probably it is, since it gives an insight in a part of the Frisian movement during a certain time.

Ediruc
Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 08:33 PM
Sometimes I do, but most of the time I think it is best that our race has achieved greatness through our innovative, imaginative, and inventive minds. Why should we be stuck in a primal status when we can achieve greatness with the sky (the Universe!) as our limit?

Erbe
Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 08:52 PM
What's the meaning of the theme. I have problems to understand this how it's written. I am from Germany and i do know a little Englisch, but not all. Can they explain it to me?

Ragnar Lodbrok
Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 10:20 PM
Sometimes I do, but most of the time I think it is best that our race has achieved greatness through our innovative, imaginative, and inventive minds. Why should we be stuck in a primal status when we can achieve greatness with the sky (the Universe!) as our limit?

It must have been splendid living a hunter-gatherer mode of existance in the wilderness back in the early bronze age and ice age. Especially being one of our neantherthal and CroMagnon crossed ancestors competing for mammoth amongst the ice sheets.

I'm still very thankful for what coming out of those melted ice sheets and ice age and those strict and harsh changes in climate and those eco-systems have given us. Our inventive and innovative minds are a result of going through the above mentioned mode of life and enviroment, there are some very dogmatic and materialistic scientists who will credit the limits mankind has pushed with an ape ancestor who ate and tripped on some magic mushrooms.

Nevertheless and ignoring the quacks and crackpots, I would never trade our innovative minds and having the skies and universe as a possible next frontier for anything.

Ocko
Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 11:14 PM
I don't think it is a either/or question.

Technology has certainly its advantages. It produces way more security (also propably more of what is really necessary) but we got locked up in it.

If we go into nature for a while we look like going on the moon. Our technology/civilisation is a lifeline we can't live without.

Certainly the modern people have lost their connection to nature. They run through it and they don't see anything. All animals run away or run for cover when humans approach. Because they are aliens to nature. That hasn't necessarily to be like that.

The old rituals our ancestors had are still alive or close to the experience of people. Revive it and use it. Have reverence for nature and see the animals by slowing down and sit and wait. Rushing through nature is not seeing anything at all.

If one loses ones feeling for time and becomes like a child to explore whatever one finds interesting one is getting closer and closer to it.

In the olden times, people were the stewards of the earth. They helped whereever it was necessary. It was not exploitative but in harmony with nature and mother earth.

I know that hunters in Germany still place a bloodsoaked twig into a mouth of a hunted dear, an ancient hunter would also pray for the animals spirit and give offerings of thanks and gratefulness for the sacrifice of life. Compare that to the industrialized slaughterhouses you will see the horror of it all.

Once I have seen a slaughterhouse were the live cattle went in. On the backside they had transmission belt were the bones came out and were put into a waste container. It shocked me, to see the industrialization of something sacred like death.

To reconnect is not that difficult, you simply have to get away from the TV and cities and go out.

It makes me more aware as I don't see just green anymore but an abundance of different plants, who struggle, florish, replace each other, deal with the animal life and so on and on. I see insects in a monumental fight, I see the ruts animals have, their connectedness/awareness and so on. It is a world of wonder.

If you expose yourself, yes, jump into that sump and feel it. Reality is getting much closer as in a protected cvilized environment. Soak yourself in that world. The wilderness will finally penetrate you and change you. If you are not in harmony with it, it is harsh, if you live in harmony with it, it is rapture.

I think through reconnecting we can become stewards of the earth too without giving up our conveniences. We simply have to change our way to look at things. Both combined and in tune with each other can be a an awarding life experience. Now we lack either this or that and it doesn't have to be like this.

Pictus
Wednesday, July 7th, 2010, 02:41 AM
I think that to answer this question truthfully, to both myself and both sides who may bring pro and anti arguments to the table, we should just ask ourselves this: "did it work? because if it did, then do not fix it".

Cliodhna
Saturday, September 4th, 2010, 08:26 PM
I do envy the simpler life...working for you and yours, rather than to line someone else's pockets...I also do enjoy some modern convieniences. However, I think I would have been more than happy to live a life of foraging for my family's good. This may sound crazy, but I have had dreams of modern people returning to a simpler life...I think this world is going to change soon. And it may be for the better...:D