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Aethelwulf
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 06:00 PM
I'm not 100% sure but I thought I should ask...

Do the Walloons still exist or are they extinct too?


Here is a link here that I have found about them: http://www.nationalanarchismus.org/nationale_anarchie/Kontakt___Abo/english/english.html

ÆinvargR
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 08:55 PM
I think you pasted the wrong link?

"The term Walloon is derived from Walha, a very old Germanic term used by Germanic Tribes to refer to Celtic and Latin speakers. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloons#Etymology)" (The same goes for Welsh). In other words, I don't think they are to be considered a Germanic group. And from the wikipedia article it looks like there still are Walloons, at least geographically and linguistically and maybe culturally...

Aethelwulf
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2008, 04:16 AM
Fair enough then.

It did seem that their language was dying out and perhaps they face extinction.
Although, I stand corrected. But in many respects you could say that about all peoples of European heritage.

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2008, 09:28 AM
I remember reading somewhere that chances are that one out of eight Swedes has Walloon ancestry - however with the mixture chances are that there are few pure Walloons these days, and that whatever ancestry of Walloons might be in modern Swedes, that the admixture is so far back that any bearing upon the actual genetic make-up, which usually only goes back 3 to 4 generations at most, is virtually excluded.

As regards the origins of the word "Walloons", I fail to produce any linguistic knowledge on that, it does however ring as a possibility that it could be from a Germanic stem for "that other tribe". It certainly can't be a coincidence that:
- The English call people from Wales Welsh
- The Swedes call a likely different tribe Walloons
- The Tyrolese call the Italians, and originally mostly referring to those Tyrolese who were of Italian ancestry rather than all Italians Walsche/Welsche. The traditional Italian speaking part of Tyrol, now the "Trentino" is thus known exclusively in German as Welschtirol.

... so I don't exclude the possibility that it could have the same meaning as the words Skraeling or Barbarian. ;)

Berrocscir
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2008, 05:15 PM
i thought the Walloons were Gallic. Is there a distinct Walloon language as opposed to french dialect?

Zuid-Vlaming
Wednesday, September 24th, 2008, 11:28 PM
i thought the Walloons were Gallic. Is there a distinct Walloon language as opposed to french dialect?

Yes, there is. It's called "Walloon". It's the most important of the native romance languages in Wallonia (the others being Picard, Champenois and Gaumais). But most Walloons speak standard french instead, which is the official language in Wallonia (whereas Walloon is not...).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_language

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 24th, 2008, 11:46 PM
... so I don't exclude the possibility that it could have the same meaning as the words Skraeling or Barbarian. ;)

Ha, and indeed!


The french word Wallonie comes from the term Wallon, itself coming from Walh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walh). Walh is a very old germanic word used to refer to a speaker of Celtic or Latin.

Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallonia)


Walh (singular) or Walha (plural) (ᚹᚨᛚᚺᚨ) is an ancient Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages) word, meaning "foreigner" or "stranger" (Welsh) or "roman", German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): welsch. The word can be found in Old High German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_High_German) walhisk ‘Roman’, in Old English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English) wilisc ‘foreign, non-English, Cymric’, in Old Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse) as valskr ‘French’. Thus it will be derived from an Proto-Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic) form such as *walhiska-.

and


is probably derived from the name of the tribe which was known to the Romans as Volcae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae) (in the writings of Julius Caesar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar)) and to the Greeks as Ouólkai (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ou%C3%B3lkai&action=edit&redlink=1) (Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) and Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy)). With the Old Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Germanic) name *Walhaz, plural *Walhôz, adjectival form *walhiska-, this neighbouring people of the Germanics were meant some centuries before C. It is assumable, that this term specifically referred to the Celtic Volcae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae), because by a precise application of the first or Germanic sound shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_shift) the exact Germanic equivalent *Walh- would have come out. Subsequently, this term Walhôz has rather indiscriminately been applied to the southern neighbours of the Germanics, which is shown in geographic names such as Walchgau (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Walchgau&action=edit&redlink=1) and Walchensee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walchensee) in Bavaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria). [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walh#cite_note-Quak_2005-0). These southern neighbours, however, were then already completely romanised. Thus, by Germanic speakers this name was generalized first onto all Celts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts), and later onto all Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome). Old High German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_High_German) Walh became Walch in Middle High German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_High_German), and adjectival OHG. walhisk became MHG. welsch, e.g. in the Romance of Alexander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_Alexander) by Rudolf von Ems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_von_Ems) – resulting in Welsche in Early New High German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_New_High_German) and Modern German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_German) as the exonym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym) for all Romanic speakers.

For both, Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walha)

Apparently, this etymological root not only was used to label these, but also by the English to label the Welsh, too - as well as the Wallachians probably taking their name from that. ;)

It also (same source as above), as I knew, is kept in the word most Germanic tongues use for gibberish:


Kauderwelsch" (Danish: "kaudervælsk", Norwegian: "kaudervelsk") is a German word for gibberish and derives from the Rhaetoroman dialect from Chur in Graubünden in Switzerland, cf. Dutch koeterwaals.

And have not English people been known to say, "This sounds Welsh", too? :D

Zuid-Vlaming
Thursday, September 25th, 2008, 08:48 PM
And have not English people been known to say, "This sounds Welsh", too?
They also say "It's all Dutch to me", so I would not trust them much concerning this matters. :D