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View Full Version : Anti-Western Clothing - What Do You Think?



Cythraul
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 09:24 AM
http://www.fmft.net/Soldier%20of%20Allah%20London%20Islamic% 20Protests%20British%20Muslim%20Terroris t.bmp
http://images.cafepress.com/product/14095398v3_240x240_Back.jpg

I saw some Somali children yesterday wearing similar designs to these, stating in big letters "SOLDIER OF ALLAH" and "PROUD TO BE MUSLIM". I was quite disgusted, unsurprisingly. Do you feel offended by these garments? Do you accept that they should be legal under free speech, or should those who wear them be subjected to the same 'Political Correctness' that all white Christian Europeans are?

Psychonaut
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 09:44 AM
Let's just say that I wouldn't be opposed to cops giving a hard time to anyone wearing that sort of crap. After all, nothing screams terrorist sympathizer quite like a shirt with "Soldier of Allah" emblazoned on it.

CrystalRose
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 10:04 AM
Sure, everyone's entitled to believe in whatever they want. But I feel people who wear these types of shirts only want to aggravate certain groups/people and draw attention to themselves. I would be offended if it were reversed and 'we' were punished in some way and they weren't. What should/can be done about people who wear this type of clothing?

I keep this shirt in my bag just in case I need to retaliate..:D
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee40/melochampa/funnypic.gif
Occasionally using the Koran pages as kleenex wouldn't be as offensive. Or would it?

Siebenbürgerin
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 10:08 AM
I believe in free expression even of those I disagree with, so I think such clothing should be allowed to be worn. Besides, it's a good way to identify people. They say clothing doesn't make a man, but I think it does in a way. Clothing is a way of expression and if a person wears messages like "soldier of Allah" it's clear he is sending a message. However, opposition to Islam should also be allowed on clothing in that case. And Germanic symbols of Asatru and other indigenous beliefs shouldn't be banned and labeled as hate symbols either.

ÆinvargR
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 11:38 AM
I'm all for this kind of segregation and conflicts. People might realize what they're letting into their country. Though, like Siebenbürgerin wrote, the same kind of clothing but against them should be allowed to wear too; I suspect it would be illegal in most of our countries.

Fortis_in_Arduis
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 01:02 PM
I'm all for this kind of segregation and conflicts. People might realize what they're letting into their country. Though, like Siebenbürgerin wrote, the same kind of clothing but against them should be allowed to wear too; I suspect it would be illegal in most of our countries.

I could not agree more. I want them to stick out like a sore thumb, and I also love to see white people wearing clothes which display racial group awareness, be it asatru symbols, traditional clothes or just nice clothes that white people wear.

Mrs. Lyfing
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 03:04 PM
I think they should go home and where those clothes. It seems very annoying for them to stroll around in another country with these types of headlines on their shirts. :|

I even would be skeptic to wear a shirt stating I am a proud White even, not because of the law, just because of other people. I mean the wrong person might see it, grab me and kill me because I am a racist. :P

I don't see a lot of blacks where I live, but, I see a lot of white women with mixed children.

If I saw a Muslim wearing a shirt like that, I would be appalled, unless I was in their homeland. ( which I never plan to be ) :thumbup

Ulf
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 03:11 PM
I got weird looks from the blacks and mexicans whenever I'm out and wearing my Deutschland shirt w/ a huge German eagle on it. I just wink at 'em and walk by.

Thusnelda
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 05:26 PM
I saw some Somali children yesterday wearing similar designs to these, stating in big letters "SOLDIER OF ALLAH" and "PROUD TO BE MUSLIM". I was quite disgusted, unsurprisingly. Do you feel offended by these garments?
Yes, I´d feel offended by this garbage-shirts because if they are so proud to be Muslims then why aren´t they residing in an islamic country? *cough* Why are they here in our Western world? :thumbdown If the Islamic way of living is so superior as they claim then why are their home-countries so backwarded and wrong-developed?
Do you accept that they should be legal under free speech, or should those who wear them be subjected to the same 'Political Correctness' that all white Christian Europeans are?
I see the process of Islamisation as the biggest threat for our Western civilisation (North America and Europe) so I´d make it illegal to praise Allah in our countries. The Islam is not only a religion, but a political and societal ideology who opposes nearly everything what our nations stand for. :thumbdown

Ulf
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 05:50 PM
Yes, I´d feel offended by this garbage-shirts because if they are so proud to be Muslims then why aren´t they residing in an islamic country? *cough* Why are they here in our Western world? :thumbdown If the Islamic way of living is so superior as they claim then why are their home-countries so backwarded and wrong-developed?

They're there (and here) to make our countries into Islamic countries... their countries are shit holes so they feel they have god given right to usurp the more well off countries by way of their religion. They're envious.

Siebenbürgerin
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 06:07 PM
People might realize what they're letting into their country.
Exactly. Europe should see the Muslims the way they are. These shirts show it very well. Most of the Muslims are fanatics. We don't need them camouflaged in suits. The only way Europe is going to realise Islam is taking over is by being forced to face reality. More hijabs. More mosques. More threats with violence. More double standards. Until it gets so unbearable that we wake up and realise they are on a religious crusade against us and we have to defend ourselves.

Thusnelda
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 07:53 PM
The only way Europe is going to realise Islam is taking over is by being forced to face reality. More hijabs. More mosques.
I think history shows that, if a culture has successfully adapted itself to a specific territory, it´s very hard to get rid of it again later. We shouldn´t give Muslims the opportunity to rise their society here, to build mosques here, to make a significant impact to our society. As earlier we get rid of them as better the outcome will be.

Because if our people don´t wake up our culture will be is eternally lost. The quantity of Muslims is constantly rising and some cities have already nearly a muslimic majority. I think there´s no time to wait anymore. I fear that there is a point of no return.

CrystalRose
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 08:08 PM
I got weird looks from the blacks and mexicans whenever I'm out and wearing my Deutschland shirt w/ a huge German eagle on it. I just wink at 'em and walk by.


I saw a small child wearing a shirt like that at the festival I went to on sunday. :thumbup
Made me smile.

Plushtar
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 08:15 PM
All this does is just Islam look like a silly media fad. I once saw a Viking world tour T-Shirt with dates listing each raid, but I wouldn't wear something like that in public.

Evolved
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 08:37 PM
I wish more people would wear their ethnic or religious affiliation proudly like that. It is only a good thing in my eyes when people maintain their separate identity rather than completely losing it to assimilation. When I see such a person I know at least I can find some ideological common ground with them, like myself they also do not want to be a part of some homogenized, consumer-driven, fake "Western" culture. The modern West (with its democracy, capitalism, consumerism, notions of personal freedom, tolerance, diversity, internationalism, etc) is epitomized by the blind worship of the Self. Like a "Warrior for Allah" I reject that notion. As weird as it sounds, a "Warrior for Allah" is closer in spirit to a Germanic Preservationist or Nationalist than a brainwashed democrat could ever be, since Mr. Allah also strives for some higher goal whereas the brainwashed democrat is a good consumer who lives for pleasing himself, and votes according to whoever gives him the most goodies.

ForwardEyes
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 08:38 PM
Exactly. Europe should see the Muslims the way they are. These shirts show it very well. Most of the Muslims are fanatics. We don't need them camouflaged in suits. The only way Europe is going to realise Islam is taking over is by being forced to face reality. More hijabs. More mosques. More threats with violence. More double standards. Until it gets so unbearable that we wake up and realise they are on a religious crusade against us and we have to defend ourselves.

The majority of the youth, who is capable of doing something in society, would answer: but those are only a few extremists - Islam is a religion of peace. And they'll keep answering that way into their graves.

People with a preservationist consciousness ought to realize people's apathy will continue until their own daughters get raped, and I don't believe such occurrences desirable - there is guile that would turn the responsibility for the act either to institutional racism accounting for why these people can't integrate into Western societies, and that is the explanation for their behaviors, or repeat the slogan in the first paragraph. Some old Christians might be offended, but they will never do anything and can never be trusted. The youth and their sources of education; colleges, media, etc. is the real problem.

About the shirt, it's just a shirt, and personally I could careless what some brown-skinned Levantine or Arabian loser wears. But agree it's helpful to show where they stand.

Galloglaich
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2008, 08:59 PM
To be honest, it really doesn't bother me - as long as I have the freedom to wear whatever I choose in return. The difference is that they can get away with it in Western countries. I wonder how long I would be afforded the same courtesies in an Islamic area.

Cythraul
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2008, 01:10 PM
To be honest, it really doesn't bother me - as long as I have the freedom to wear whatever I choose in return. The difference is that they can get away with it in Western countries. I wonder how long I would be afforded the same courtesies in an Islamic area.
Or indeed in your own Western country! How long do you think you'd avoid prosecution or A&E walking around in a shirt that said "Opponent of Islam"? Actually, you might be OK over in Vinland ;), but here in the south-east of England, I'd have better luck walking around naked.


Like a "Warrior for Allah" I reject that notion. As weird as it sounds, a "Warrior for Allah" is closer in spirit to a Germanic Preservationist or Nationalist than a brainwashed democrat could ever be, since Mr. Allah also strives for some higher goal whereas the brainwashed democrat is a good consumer who lives for pleasing himself, and votes according to whoever gives him the most goodies.
Valuable point! My opinion on Muslims in Britain is an awkward mix of disgust and respect. On one hand, they're mostly moral, non-materialistic and strong in conviction - values which should be central to Germanics. Instead, we've cultivated an environment of bloated materialism and mindless pursuit. Many of us are less respectable than the Muslims. On the other hand, Islam is a virus, spreading fast, that threatens our way of life. And the West might be spiritually and intellectually dormant now, but we still have that old pride and fighting spirit buried within us somewhere.

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2008, 02:09 PM
I certainly defend their right to wear a shirt that identifies them as a proud follower of their religion, just like I choose to wear a poloshirt embroidered with the Odinic Rite logo, and have toyed with the thought of buying similar-themed ones.

The central part about wearing a religious shirt is still though that I probably wouldn't wear one that was offensive to another religion. Reason being not one of political correctness, but just that I believe one should be promoting one's own cause rather than destructive towards others: Thus I probably wouldn't wear the "My god carries a hammer. Your god was nailed to a cross, Any questions?" one. Whoever needs negativity to promote the value of their own cause is an attention seeker. ;)

The issue at hand with these shirts is thus not their nature nor message: In fact I have nothing against the fact that one can be a proud Muslim just as much as he can be a proud Christian, Jew, Hindu, Heathen etc. ... religious identity is part of identity and thus spirituality is an important thing to be preserved.

The issue at hand is what Valkyrie said: Why, in Thunor's name, if they are so proud Turks/Muslims/Arabs/Pakistanis etc. do they not go home to build up their own country? They claim to be proud Turks but instead of helping their families and friends at home, they brag about their BMW. They claim to be proud soldiers of their faith and culture, but often enough fled themselves from the duty they so revere as refugees... And like everything, everything has its place and time: Freedom of Religion is an important freedom, but it neither serves as an excuse for everything, nor should it be used to defy another nation's laws.

I have always been a large supporter of allowing people from less developed countries to study at our universities - but then in the understanding that they use our knowledge to build up their own country: Many of their compatriots would not feel the urge to leave and if they did, then there would be no rationale for them to claim "economic immigration". Would solve some of the problem... and yes, before you ask, I intend to go back home to Austria/Germany after my studies. ;)

arthor
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2008, 05:36 PM
cyfarchion

This thread seemed to start off about wearing a possibly emotive and provocative religious symbol or statement. It then seemed to shift to a discussion on the muslims or the religion itself. Coments were made as to whether those professing to be proud soldiers of islam should go and be proud in their own country.
There are two issues here. Muslims coming here. Islam coming here. As far as islam is concerned, I am happy for people to believe in whatever they want and don't see islam as any different to christianity being here. They are both ALIEN! But people believe in what they feel. At least islam is coming here on the back of migrants and could be said to be spreading by natural population movement. Christianity arrived, was established and maintained its position through manipulation and by deliberate quashing of the old beliefs.
I wear my Odin t shirts. My hammer and raven carving. I don't see Soldiers of Allah any different to hearing the Sally Army singing Onward Christian Soldiers. I also personally like the hammer and cross t shirt and would love someone to let me know where i can get one in the UK.

Here's a question. Who would you prefer?
a) A northern European muslim?
b) A christian arab?
(I deliberately didn't say an African Odinist because in my humble opinion there could not possibly be any such person as Asatru/Vanatru is a faith.

wasshael

Siebenbürgerin
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2008, 06:07 PM
I think history shows that, if a culture has successfully adapted itself to a specific territory, it´s very hard to get rid of it again later.
Exactly, and that's why an integrated Muslim wearing European clothing and acting like an European is more dangerous to us i the long run than one acting like a Muslim and wearing a hijab. In a few generations, the integrated Muslim won't be identified as Muslim anymore. But the traditional Muslim will stick out from the population.


We shouldn´t give Muslims the opportunity to rise their society here, to build mosques here, to make a significant impact to our society. As earlier we get rid of them as better the outcome will be.

Because if our people don´t wake up our culture will be is eternally lost. The quantity of Muslims is constantly rising and some cities have already nearly a muslimic majority. I think there´s no time to wait anymore. I fear that there is a point of no return.
We shouldn't have given them the opportunity to immigrate in the first place. But I fear immigration won't stop any soon. And you see, we are asking Muslisms to act like Europeans and become Europeans. To wear our clothes. To eat our food. To go to our churches. If we do this generation by generation, they will feel more and more European. They will feel Europe is their home. They will want to mix with European people. They will not want to go back to the desert. As for the native population, like people said, they don't realise it. They think it's just a few extremists and that most are alright. The only way they will wake up in my view is when they see more and more mosques and minarets rising in the sky. It's not whether we should build them more mosques or not... because we are doing it. But I see a potentially good outcome from it. Europeans will feel more and more oppressed, like slaves. Like when the Ottoman Empire subjugated European countries. And they will want to break free. That's my hopeful scenario, the other one is our worst fear unfortunately.

Cythraul
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2008, 08:45 PM
After reading some interesting perspectives on the matter, I agree with Siebenbürgerin. Whilst the sight of these t-shirts fills me with rage, I absolutely defend the right of Muslims to wear them - not because I'm sympathetic to their religion but because I believe identity is more important than ever in our day and age. After all, what is Preservationism if not the strife for cultural and ethnic identity? The quickest route to an awakening of the masses in terms of their National identity will be by separation not integration. Besides, as I passed the Muslims who were wearing the shirts, an Englishman (who was with two young daughters) muttered under his breath "f**king scumbags" - clearly referring to the two Muslims. Pro-Islamic (or pro-anything for that matter) garments like these bring people's opinions out into the open and this is vastly preferable to a quiet bottling-up of sentiment.

Besides, as arthor rightly points out, Christianity is as much of an alien religion to Old Europe as Islam and we've all spent out lives having Biblical dogma forced down our throats. Although, Christianity did adapt to the Pagan climate far more than Islam seems to be - but again, is adaption good? Probably not, making Christianity's legacy more detrimental than Islam's.

Enlil
Thursday, September 4th, 2008, 04:02 PM
I keep this shirt in my bag just in case I need to retaliate..:D
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee40/melochampa/funnypic.gif
Occasionally using the Koran pages as kleenex wouldn't be as offensive. Or would it?
Retaliate? Your crazy war is the reason so many Iraqis are leaving their country in the first place. :shoot

Thusnelda
Thursday, September 4th, 2008, 04:04 PM
Exactly, and that's why an integrated Muslim wearing European clothing and acting like an European is more dangerous to us i the long run than one acting like a Muslim and wearing a hijab. In a few generations, the integrated Muslim won't be identified as Muslim anymore. But the traditional Muslim will stick out from the population.
I can see your point but an "integrated" Muslim is of the same threat to our societal, political, ethical and, last but not least, ethnical integrity than those muslims who wear such shirts. That´s at least my point of view. The process of Islamisation is a slowly process and it doesn´t happen apruptly, but slighty. We are already actively endangered by Islamisation - since centuries. Just look back to the crusades (Europeans defended their Christian structures in Near-East) and the epic battles over the fate of Europe like those of Prince Eugen, Karl Martel or Sobieski.
The Islam had always the goal to spread itself into Europe, to make it a "dar-al-islam", a "House of Islam".

An integrated muslim will be a muslim nonetheless, and so there are means to identify them.

We shouldn't have given them the opportunity to immigrate in the first place.
I totally agree here. :) It was a major fault of Western politics.

And you see, we are asking Muslisms to act like Europeans and become Europeans. To wear our clothes. To eat our food. To go to our churches.
I know what you mean but the only thing I ask Muslims for is to leave our cultural hemisphere.

If we do this generation by generation, they will feel more and more European. They will feel Europe is their home. They will want to mix with European people. They will not want to go back to the desert.
That´s why we shouldn´t give them the excitement to feel like Europeans. It is of no matter if they wear such hostile T-shirts or not, because if they´re proud Muslims they are hostile to our culture and tradition by religion and their religious fundaments.
I´ve read the Quoran and some parts of the Sharia and I´ve the opinion that those who read these things and stick to that "religion" nonetheless have no right to be here anymore. It´s self-explaining that this counts for most Muslims because nearly every Muslim reads the Quoran and approves its content.

The Islam is not only a religion but also a political and societal as well as enviromental doctrine. As Samuel Huntington states in his book "Clash of the cultures" I find that the Western and Islamic world are incompatible to each other. To dissociate both worlds is the best way to solve the problem.

The only way they will wake up in my view is when they see more and more mosques and minarets rising in the sky. It's not whether we should build them more mosques or not... because we are doing it. But I see a potentially good outcome from it. Europeans will feel more and more oppressed, like slaves.
I honestly don´t see a good outcome that way :( but I hope you´re right. Most Europeans aren´t even realizising the oppressive and centralistic nature of the "European Union", so how should they be able to look behind the facade of the Islamic face to see it´s true and ugly nature?

I´m afraid that if we allow them to build more and more mosques and to spread further we will never bring that buildings to fall again. People are so full of political correct-propaganda that the "civil war" or the uprising against Islam in Europe may never come. Maybe it´s like waiting for Godot? :( I hope not, but I fear that there´s a high possibility for that.

So to formulate it a little bit pointed: The only good thing I see in these "proud muslim"-shirts is that we could pick them easier out of the mass to put them in a plane to their corresponding home-countries with a one-way-ticket. ;) *g*

Ulf
Thursday, September 4th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Retaliate? Your crazy war is the reason so many Iraqis are leaving their country in the first place. :shoot

Sure, but, would you miss Iraq? :~(

;)

Eccardus Teutonicus
Thursday, September 4th, 2008, 06:02 PM
http://www.fmft.net/Soldier%20of%20Allah%20London%20Islamic% 20Protests%20British%20Muslim%20Terroris t.bmp
http://images.cafepress.com/product/14095398v3_240x240_Back.jpg

I saw some Somali children yesterday wearing similar designs to these, stating in big letters "SOLDIER OF ALLAH" and "PROUD TO BE MUSLIM". I was quite disgusted, unsurprisingly. Do you feel offended by these garments? Do you accept that they should be legal under free speech, or should those who wear them be subjected to the same 'Political Correctness' that all white Christian Europeans are?

To be fair, any anger at these shirts would be the same anger against these shirts that I own:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e105/rhuitron/Funny%20Photos/Raw%20Humor/WhiteFlour.jpg
http://www.t-shirt-mania.com/tshirt-hell-pictures/I-AM-THE-WHITE-MAN-THATS-BEEN-KEEPING-YOU-DOWN.gif
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2361/2066116818_74caa937a8.jpg

I also have a tshirt "what about all the good things Hitler did?" and "Support the Fine Arts... Shoot a Rapper."

These shirts are largely designed to get a reaction out of people. I wouldn't consider the Soldier of Allah tshirt all that different from these shirts that I own. I consider the styles of dress adopted by the variety of subcultures (including "Goth", "Emo", "Ghetto", and popular female modes) far more anti-western and far more dangerous than a white "proud to be a muslim" tshirt.

Hamar Fox
Thursday, September 4th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Upon reflection, beyond the initial shock and anger of seeing something like that, I'd probably accept it as a favourable scenario to its opposite: the complete acceptance by foreigners of our culture. I'm rarely optimistic, but perhaps there's a glimmer of hope that immigrants' self-imposed segregation through distrust or even hatred of their host population will act as social limit to the damage wrought by their presence.

I'd also question the value of suppressing certain viewpoints. The ideology would continue to fester, maybe even grow, but to the ignorance of wider society. It's certainly preferable, politically, to know your enemy, and for them to win you allies through their own stupidity.

Dagna
Thursday, September 4th, 2008, 06:53 PM
An integrated muslim will be a muslim nonetheless, and so there are means to identify them.
He will not, because he will have shaken off his traditions. European and Muslim cultures are not compatible, so integration into Europe would mean slowly discarding Muslim habits, one by one. Then the Europeans will stop frowning so much. "Look, they have become more civilized, let's give them a chance." It will happen exactly the same as it has been happening with Jews in the USA and other countries. The common man here considers Rupert Murdoch American and Albert Einstein German.

Thusnelda
Thursday, September 4th, 2008, 07:35 PM
They want to integrate Muslims into Europe while remaining Muslims. And so they try to achieve a form of so called "Euro-Islam". :| I don´t see that Muslims are stopping being Muslims at all. Even the very few "integrated" muslims are practising their fate. Those who abandoned their fate are "Ex-Muslims" and under heavy pressure by Muslims.

Psychonaut
Friday, September 5th, 2008, 01:07 AM
I can see your point but an "integrated" Muslim is of the same threat to our societal, political, ethical and, last but not least, ethnical integrity than those muslims who wear such shirts.

This is very true and can be exemplified by the example of another group of immigrants from the Middle East. It takes quite a bit of experience to be able to recognize a Jew and to judge their influence according to that; they've done their best to blend in, while remaining Jewish. And it worked. Most people can't tell the difference between a Jew and a European. This is not what we want to happen with the Arabs. They need to be easily recognized as such so that they can be easily dealt with. Integration is just one step towards miscegenation.

signofthehammer
Friday, September 5th, 2008, 11:14 AM
Or indeed in your own Western country! How long do you think you'd avoid prosecution or A&E walking around in a shirt that said "Opponent of Islam"? Actually, you might be OK over in Vinland ;), but here in the south-east of England, I'd have better luck walking around naked.


Valuable point! My opinion on Muslims in Britain is an awkward mix of disgust and respect. On one hand, they're mostly moral, non-materialistic and strong in conviction - values which should be central to Germanics. Instead, we've cultivated an environment of bloated materialism and mindless pursuit. Many of us are less respectable than the Muslims. On the other hand, Islam is a virus, spreading fast, that threatens our way of life. And the West might be spiritually and intellectually dormant now, but we still have that old pride and fighting spirit buried within us somewhere.


You're kidding, right? Germanic culture has absolutely nothing in common with islam. Islam is judeo-christian, it divides the world into good and evil and epitomizes slave morality. Germanic tradition values courage and honour in battle (NOT suicide). Moreover to say that anti-materialism should be central to Germanics is the most ridiculous, ahistorical assertion I've ever heard. Our entire system of Kingship was based on the king's ability to provide his warriors with treasure in return for their service - once a king could no longer provide, new king. Hence terms for kings like 'ring-giver'.

Psychonaut
Friday, September 5th, 2008, 10:52 PM
You're kidding, right? Germanic culture has absolutely nothing in common with islam. Islam is judeo-christian, it divides the world into good and evil and epitomizes slave morality. Germanic tradition values courage and honour in battle (NOT suicide). Moreover to say that anti-materialism should be central to Germanics is the most ridiculous, ahistorical assertion I've ever heard. Our entire system of Kingship was based on the king's ability to provide his warriors with treasure in return for their service - once a king could no longer provide, new king. Hence terms for kings like 'ring-giver'.

I don't think that's what he meant. You have to admit that Muslims have preserved their cultural traditions in a way that we have not. However, their traditions are hostile to ours and cannot be allowed to further attack our societies.

Evolved
Saturday, September 6th, 2008, 01:42 AM
Valuable point! My opinion on Muslims in Britain is an awkward mix of disgust and respect. On one hand, they're mostly moral, non-materialistic and strong in conviction - values which should be central to Germanics. Instead, we've cultivated an environment of bloated materialism and mindless pursuit. Many of us are less respectable than the Muslims. On the other hand, Islam is a virus, spreading fast, that threatens our way of life. And the West might be spiritually and intellectually dormant now, but we still have that old pride and fighting spirit buried within us somewhere.

I agree, while I'm definitely not in favor their presence in Europe, I cannot deny their stated (if not always practiced) values are more in line with European traditional values, especially public morality, designated gender roles, concept of the family unit, lack of usury, etc. It's a good measurement for just how far the West has fallen that we consider a girl in hijab (that is, a girl who choses not to dress like a hooker & get piss drunk every weekend) as emblematic of a frightening social threat.

Muslims know exactly who they are, their culture is proud, manly, & they guard it fiercely. Post-war Europe is feminized, largely has a false sense of identity to the point where we have idiots claiming that modern liberal values (feminism/anti-racism/anti-nationalism) represent the pure essence of Western Civilization when nothing could be further from the truth. Europeans & European-Americans must get back to our old, pre-war, pre-liberal ways if we ever hope to be rid of parasites of every stripe. We cannot fight off a proud, militant, manly culture with messages of "tolerance" and promoting "women's rights" and all this other sissy, communist garbage. This is like someone throwing rocks at you, and you respond by throwing marshmallows at them.

I also think a lot of the atheist liberal types who oppose Islamization do so out of the fear that the presence of Muslims will awaken a return to the old moral values and nationalism of pre-war Europe. When you live in a society with more openly religious people, your own religion and morality (whatever it may be) becomes a larger part of your everyday life (just as an example, after the Islamic revolution the Christians and Jews of Iran became more pious than before). You see some of these liberals trying to steer the immigration debate and frame it in liberal values, such as the argument: "We must fight Islamization because Muslims are intolerant of gays and women," as if this was the main reason to be against Muslim immigration, as if Europe has some long history of such tolerance, as if this lame call to action will stir people's spirits toward resistance...

Sigurd
Saturday, September 6th, 2008, 05:40 PM
He will not, because he will have shaken off his traditions. European and Muslim cultures are not compatible, so integration into Europe would mean slowly discarding Muslim habits, one by one. Then the Europeans will stop frowning so much.

A banana will always be a banana, no matter how much it tries to be an apple. Culture, and faith, are so deeply rooted that one cannot simply discard them once a certain boundary has been reached.

I have always agreed that integration of fellow Germanics, and to some extent inner-European integration is a possible matter and can be a commendable thing where it concerns worthy individuals, but the boundary between the cultures of the orient and the cultures of the occident are too distinct that they can be broken so easily.

I reiterate: A Cox apples can become a Bramley apple a few generations down the genealogy of trees, but a banana will always be a banana, no matter how much it tries to be an apple.

Freedom of religion is one thing, amalmagation between nations quite another.

TrueEnglish
Saturday, September 6th, 2008, 10:15 PM
I saw some Somali children yesterday wearing similar designs to these, stating in big letters "SOLDIER OF ALLAH" and "PROUD TO BE MUSLIM". I was quite disgusted, unsurprisingly. Do you feel offended by these garments? Do you accept that they should be legal under free speech


Absolutely they should be legal under free speech. Under free speech it's ok to be a terrorist muslim in another persons land so long as you don't admit you've done wrong.

Free speech is not something i cannot understand or tolerate.

ChaosLord
Sunday, September 7th, 2008, 06:17 PM
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3812/2plykoranso2.th.png (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2plykoranso2.png)

Here is one of my anti-Islam shirts in my collection.

I've had a couple reactions to this shirt, but mainly people who found it hilarious. I tend to wear it in the Mall of America, since a lot of Islamic Somalians frequent it, but I haven't had any reactions from them except an occassional glare.

TrueEnglish
Tuesday, September 9th, 2008, 11:57 AM
Cythraul is right about Islam. Regardless of what the ancient germanics actually did, they were not culturally and educationally superior to other european and near middle eastern ways such as Judaic monotheism in its various forms at that particular time (in my view) - hence why their culture was conquered by Christianity and various invaders, and the vikings and other tribes ceased to exist.

Slowly over time we have come to realise we have no connection to a Judaic faith and tales of people thousands of miles away in other continents. We have, for hundreds of years, been teaching our children tales from an entirely different landscape and culture with little significance to ourselves. We have our own history as europeans, our own heros and martyrs, the problem is that they we were perhaps not as educated or culturally superior in that way, at that particular time, which left us open to weakness. While our tribes were busy killing each other over farmland and other petty issues, the biggest armies to have ever been created were amassing south in more comfortable enviroments, in the form of militant monotheistic disciplines.

If the germanics were smarter back then they would have said ok, here is a superior way of doing things, it's called christianity, but lets put our own touch on it.

Pino
Tuesday, September 9th, 2008, 10:20 PM
The problem is not the clothing it's the people wearing it, they shouldn't be in our homelands whether they are wearing such filth or not.

Cythraul
Tuesday, September 9th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Moreover to say that anti-materialism should be central to Germanics is the most ridiculous, ahistorical assertion I've ever heard. Our entire system of Kingship was based on the king's ability to provide his warriors with treasure in return for their service - once a king could no longer provide, new king. Hence terms for kings like 'ring-giver'.
Except that original Germanicism was spiritual, with spiritual pursuits more prized than material ones. Of course Germanics developed a monetary system and material reward was an important aspect of the culture - you're defining 'materialism' too literally. Our ancestors weren't like the high Buddhists whose goal it was/is to detach themselves from the material world, but they certainly weren't materialistic in the modern sense (and this is how I meant it) - life had a deeper meaning than mere possessions. 'Treasure' was a means to provide for ones family and thus maintaining the culture and cycle of ancestry which was partially of spiritual importance. And indeed, material objects held a spiritual importance and so to acquire valuable objects was often to acquire certain esoteric abilities. In short, material goods were valued but the early Germanics cannot be labelled 'materialistic' in the modern sense of the word because the 'material' was not their only, or even primary pursuit. Honour and wisdom are ultimately NOT material traits and so if we are to concede that these two things were of paramount importance to our ancestors, then we are to understand that their ultimate goals were not material.

signofthehammer
Tuesday, September 9th, 2008, 11:08 PM
Except that original Germanicism was spiritual, with spiritual pursuits more prized than material ones. Of course Germanics developed a monetary system and material reward was an important aspect of the culture - you're defining 'materialism' too literally. Our ancestors weren't like the high Buddhists whose goal it was/is to detach themselves from the material world, but they certainly weren't materialistic in the modern sense (and this is how I meant it) - life had a deeper meaning than mere possessions. 'Treasure' was a means to provide for ones family and thus maintaining the culture and cycle of ancestry which was partially of spiritual importance. And indeed, material objects held a spiritual importance and so to acquire valuable objects was often to acquire certain esoteric abilities. In short, material goods were valued but the early Germanics cannot be labelled 'materialistic' in the modern sense of the word because the 'material' was not their only, or even primary pursuit. Honour and wisdom are ultimately NOT material traits and so if we are to concede that these two things were of paramount importance to our ancestors, then we are to understand that their ultimate goals were not material.

Ok. That's fair. I misunderstood. Though I do think there's a marked difference between the non-materialism you describe and the anti-materialism of islamic communities in western countries

Psychonaut
Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 02:47 AM
'Treasure' was a means to provide for ones family and thus maintaining the culture and cycle of ancestry which was partially of spiritual importance. And indeed, material objects held a spiritual importance and so to acquire valuable objects was often to acquire certain esoteric abilities. In short, material goods were valued but the early Germanics cannot be labelled 'materialistic' in the modern sense of the word because the 'material' was not their only, or even primary pursuit.

You know, I see this kind of sentiment put forth quite often, but I don't think it's really true. I've read most of the Sagas and period literature about our ancestors and for the most part (especially in the Sagas), their pursuit of treasure seems to be purely materialistic in nature. If you're aware of any historical examples of Germanic acquisition of wealth being portrayed in a different light, I'd sure like to see it. Just about every example that I can think of in which an historical personage acquires wealth, it is for the sheer purpose of being rich, or too impress a local king, or to become a king oneself, etc.

I do not agree with our current materialistic consumer mentality at all. I just don't think that presenting a hyper-idealized picture of our ancestors is the best way to go about combating it.

Jäger
Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 09:46 AM
"For gold and glory!" - Beowulf

Cythraul
Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 10:49 AM
You know, I see this kind of sentiment put forth quite often, but I don't think it's really true. I've read most of the Sagas and period literature about our ancestors and for the most part (especially in the Sagas), their pursuit of treasure seems to be purely materialistic in nature.
A fair point. For my viewpoint on this matter to be better understood, it's imperative that I explain my personal interpretation of linear religious history: The earliest Germanics were what can best be described as 'Shamanic' (as indeed all of ancient man was). This is a pure form of Paganism whereby our ancestors were directly in touch with the spirit-world. Paganism gradually became a convention by which the gods were alive in tradition but distant in occurence. The people no longer experienced them directly. This is what made the coming of Christianity such an inevitability - the connection with the old gods and spirits was lost and the ability to converse directly with spirit was handed over to the new Priests. In short, mankind became gradually less spiritual in favour of materialism. Indeed, the documented views of ancient Alchemists teach that:

as this cycle begins, the world and all of its inhabitants are totally aligned with deep spiritual principles, the natural world and shimmering realms of Divinity. It is a time of unity, splendor, grace and luminosity. However, as the cycle unfolds and these Ages metaphorically progress, from gold to silver to bronze to iron, the bulk of humanity moves further and further away from this pure, unsullied, essential knowledge and experience of spirit. As time moves on, there is a gradual distancing from the Primordial Source and descent towards an age of total materialization and concretization.
Tolkien and Alchemy (sorry to utilise such a flimsy source but it's the only useful online reference to this particular Alchemical view I could find) (http://www.jayweidner.com/JayTolkien1.htm)

Beowulf and almost all of the sagas we have in our possession pertain to relatively recent chapters in the history of Germanicism. In fact, most are written by Christians and therefore useless in terms of painting a picture of a purely pre-Christian belief system. Christianity = materialism and so it's natural that all of post-Christian Germanic culture would be more materialistic than it had previously been. Go back roughly 3,500-4,000 years to the origins of Germanicism and the pursuit of material goods would have been secondary to spiritual pursuits. This is less true of Germanics circa 800AD.

Besides, whether you believe ancient Germanics were primarily materialistic or not, you must be aware that honour and courage were key traits. And to lead this back on topic, I merely suggested that Islam venerates its own interpretation of 'honour' more highly than we currently do.

Pino
Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 01:26 PM
How exactly can gender roles in Islam and Germanic culture been compared?

Islam teaches that Women are completely inferior to Men and are there slaves and must do whatever they tell them, no upstanding Germanic man would ever treat a Woman in such a way, although he was definately considerd "head of the household" so to speak this idea that Women where put on the earth to serve men is completely foreign to us.

I think Islam has a lot more in common with Christianity when it comes down to the roles of Women.

Jäger
Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 04:01 PM
Islam teaches that Women are completely inferior to Men and are there slaves and must do whatever they tell them, no upstanding Germanic man would ever treat a Woman in such a way, although he was definately considerd "head of the household" so to speak this idea that Women where put on the earth to serve men is completely foreign to us.
Why do you think was the man considered head of the family, and what else would being the head of the family imply, other than that the rest has to do what the head tells them to?

How a man treats his wife is not dependent on whether she has to subject herself to him or not, it depends on the man, whether he is an asshole or not.


I think Islam has a lot more in common with Christianity when it comes down to the roles of Women.
Indeed.


Eph. 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

Eph. 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Eph. 5:24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

"If they [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there." - Martin Luther

Old Winter
Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Or indeed in your own Western country! How long do you think you'd avoid prosecution or A&E walking around in a shirt that said "Opponent of Islam"? Actually, you might be OK over in Vinland ;), but here in the south-east of England, I'd have better luck walking around naked.


Valuable point! My opinion on Muslims in Britain is an awkward mix of disgust and respect. On one hand, they're mostly moral, non-materialistic and strong in conviction - values which should be central to Germanics. Instead, we've cultivated an environment of bloated materialism and mindless pursuit. Many of us are less respectable than the Muslims. On the other hand, Islam is a virus, spreading fast, that threatens our way of life. And the West might be spiritually and intellectually dormant now, but we still have that old pride and fighting spirit buried within us somewhere.

non-materialistic ? are you kidding me ?

values ? letting their 5 year olds walk the streets at night ?

Cythraul
Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 05:04 PM
non-materialistic ? are you kidding me ?
You may be right, but please provide an example of how Muslims are inherently materialistic. I'm not trying to stick up for Islam here - I despise it. But I do believe we Europeans/Germanics would have better grounds to criticize Muslims if our own house was fully in order, so to speak. Europe gave way to the less preferable religion of Christianity just as Arabia gave way to the less preferable religion of Islam. Granted, modern Islam is far more reprehensible than modern Christianity, but we are still not perfect. I believe it is just as important to look inwards and improve ourselves as it is to look outwards and condemn foreigners for their wrong actions.

Berrocscir
Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 05:17 PM
Maybe we could start, those who are able, by matching or going above the annual 2.5% of income devout muslims denote to good causes. I admire some of the ways Islam expects its adherents to behave, its just that it's pitched in a thoroughly alien way to how I live.

TrueEnglish
Monday, September 15th, 2008, 02:44 PM
non-materialistic ? are you kidding me ?

values ? letting their 5 year olds walk the streets at night ?


These could be considered foreign-muslims (even though they are in our lands), and working class poor. They have lost a lot of the actual cultural discipline even though they claim to be practicing muslims. Even though they claim they are muslim, naturally they are surrounded in western culture and that rubs off on them - right up until they clearly cross the line within their own family traditions. Then they are either shunned or change their ways.

Compare a British muslim for example to a Saudi muslim, and there would be little comparison, even within the working class.

Pino
Monday, September 15th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Go to countries like the United Arab Emirates and you will surely find Muslims who are just as keen to get hold of the latest product from China as any man in western nations. All nations no matter what race that have a modern capitalist system become materialistic because capitalist economys are based around materialism.

You will find people in Iraq and Afghanistan arn't materialistic becuase they carn't afford to be.

I wouldn't say Muslims are anymore naturally materialisitc than anyone else.

Old Winter
Tuesday, September 16th, 2008, 06:53 AM
You may be right, but please provide an example of how Muslims are inherently materialistic. I'm not trying to stick up for Islam here - I despise it. But I do believe we Europeans/Germanics would have better grounds to criticize Muslims if our own house was fully in order, so to speak. Europe gave way to the less preferable religion of Christianity just as Arabia gave way to the less preferable religion of Islam. Granted, modern Islam is far more reprehensible than modern Christianity, but we are still not perfect. I believe it is just as important to look inwards and improve ourselves as it is to look outwards and condemn foreigners for their wrong actions.

Their heaven is a heaven of flesh, sex and lust, zero spirituality.

All the muslims i see here in my land brag about their big car, expensive clothes and most sit in mcdonalds everday.

The muslims here think they have a higher status above Dutch people when they have a bigger and more expensive car...........

Fortis_in_Arduis
Tuesday, September 16th, 2008, 01:49 PM
Go to countries like the United Arab Emirates and you will surely find Muslims who are just as keen to get hold of the latest product from China as any man in western nations. All nations no matter what race that have a modern capitalist system become materialistic because capitalist economys are based around materialism.

You will find people in Iraq and Afghanistan arn't materialistic becuase they carn't afford to be.

I wouldn't say Muslims are anymore naturally materialisitc than anyone else.

Yeas... but...

Islam does appeal to the lowest parts of human nature and it allows degenerate peoples to procreate irrespective of their ability to survive outwith such a totalitarianism.

Neophyte
Tuesday, September 16th, 2008, 10:03 PM
http://www.fmft.net/Soldier%20of%20Allah%20London%20Islamic% 20Protests%20British%20Muslim%20Terroris t.bmp
http://images.cafepress.com/product/14095398v3_240x240_Back.jpg

I saw some Somali children yesterday wearing similar designs to these, stating in big letters "SOLDIER OF ALLAH" and "PROUD TO BE MUSLIM". I was quite disgusted, unsurprisingly. Do you feel offended by these garments? Do you accept that they should be legal under free speech, or should those who wear them be subjected to the same 'Political Correctness' that all white Christian Europeans are?

Offended? Maybe a little. However, these clothes and the messages they carry serves to remind us not to confuse the enemy of our enemy with a friend.

But still, the only reason that they walk around with them here is that they are a minority and feel the need to manifest their culture etc. in a manner that we do not. I really cannot imagine the same people running around with those t-shirts in Kandahar. I fear the day when I will feel like wearing something that says "Soilder of the Aryan Race. Sieg Heil!".

It is also very tacky. Just like everything else connected with that kind of people.

Fenris
Wednesday, September 17th, 2008, 07:06 AM
I'm not offended by the sight of these shirts, what offends me is that it's completely acceptable for "minorities" to wear such slogans, while I would be persecuted (and likely attacked) as an evil racist were I to stroll into a grocery store wearing a "White Pride World-Wide" shirt.

That's the real problem. The slogans aren't the issue, it's the hypocrisy behind the concept of political correctness and the burden of white guilt forced upon our people by the jewish media.

Blod og Jord
Monday, September 20th, 2010, 04:41 PM
Do you feel offended by these garments?
Yes, of course. As if the presence of Muslim immigrants in my country isn't enough, they have to parade their hatred for the West.
My question to them is if you are so proud to be a Muslim and soldier of Allah, why did you leave your Muslim country to come to a European Germanic one? Be a proud Muslim in the Muslim world, not the Germanic one.


Do you accept that they should be legal under free speech, or should those who wear them be subjected to the same 'Political Correctness' that all white Christian Europeans are?
Of course they should.
However, the main problem is, that they're here. In their countries they can wear what they like of course.

flâneur
Monday, September 20th, 2010, 04:45 PM
My question to them is if you are so proud to be a Muslim and soldier of Allah, why did you leave your Muslim country to come to a European Germanic one? Be a proud Muslim in the Muslim world, not the Germanic one.


They are warriors in another sense,they are sowing their seed in our lands.These soldiers wear no uniforms and carry no guns....and they are even more deadlier.
Sickening i know,but its the truth.....their tactic is slowly slowly...catchee monkey.In fifty years they will be in the majority.

Ragnar Lodbrok
Monday, September 20th, 2010, 04:54 PM
They are warriors in another sense,they are sowing their seed in our lands.These soldiers wear no uniforms and carry no guns....and they are even more deadlier.
Sickening i know,but its the truth.....their tactic is slowly slowly...catchee monkey.In fifty years they will be in the majority.

The way they see it getting to immigrate to the west and live off of the welfare system by popping out all the nine or ten kids they try to have at one time is a good deal.

If things don't change most of western europe will become a mongrelized Islamic republic before the end of this century.

flâneur
Monday, September 20th, 2010, 04:57 PM
Its true,they are colonizing without guns,arms or planes.
Didnt Gaddafi make a speech about it a while back...?

Aeternitas
Tuesday, September 21st, 2010, 07:10 PM
It doesn't offend me if someone wants to express their pride in being Muslim via clothing. This (http://netwmd.com/blog/wp-content/themes/default/images/vert.london1.ap.jpeg) is, to me, rather an expression of "anti-Western" feeling and it's even more disturbing that it is done right in Europe.

However, seeing a ban on "anti-Western" clothing wouldn't make me feel much better. It would be like sweeping the dust under the carpet. The issue is rather, as others have mentioned already, that the borders were opened for them in the first place; and that there is a double standard, in that Germanics/Europeans wearing pride clothing/symbols are treated as extremists and haters, again, right in their countries, which is what makes it even more disturbing.

Also, personally I am not the biggest fan of slogan wear. I like simple, casual shirts that don't stand out too much. However, in this day and age pride clothing is not unjustified. In a homogeneous and healthy Germanic/European society of course, "proud [insert ethnicity here]" shirts wouldn't really be necessary. They would be like stating the obvious.

Schattenjäger
Tuesday, September 21st, 2010, 08:05 PM
It should be banned in the western countries. As all things anti-western.