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Sigurd
Saturday, August 16th, 2008, 09:56 PM
The European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms can be found here (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=9102)

(obviously a number of the articles make me shake my head, but at least they can be interpreted into something else always...)

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I will try to make this a bit like a "weekly discussion round" or so. I shall post an article, and people will offer their opinion. After there have been no new replies for let's say 7 days, I will continue with the next article, which is then up to discussion.

Referring back to an article which has previously been posted and discussed is allowed, but for discussing an article that is not yet up "on the list", please wait until that one comes around. ;)

Posts that are ahead of the article discussed will be subject to editorial discretion.

Sigurd
Saturday, August 16th, 2008, 09:57 PM
First off, I know that Freedom of Religion is the most interesting to discuss, but well...let's go by order...

OK, Article 2 does not need any discussion, too straight forward, and pretty understandable, not much controversy causable, and the only deprivation of life that is debatable in a civil manner is the Death Penalty, that's been done elsewhere.

So let us move on to Article 3, which is one of the few near-to-absolute ones, and the only discussion is over whether we should allow it. So not much to discuss here either.

Article 4 though could pose some interesting questions:


Article 4

1.No one shall be held in slavery or servitude.

2.No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour.

3.For the purpose of this article the term forced or compulsory labour' shall not include:
(a) any work required to be done in the ordinary course of detention imposed according to the provisions of Article 5 of this Convention or during conditional release from such detention;
(b) any service of a military character or, in case of conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognized, service exacted instead of compulsory military service;
(c) any service exacted in case of an emergency or calamity threatening the life or well-being of the community;
(d) any work or service which forms part of normal civic obligations.

What are your thoughts on this? Slavery yes, no? What qualifies as "slavery" IYO? Should compulsory military service be maintained? etc etc?

SwordOfTheVistula
Tuesday, August 19th, 2008, 05:54 AM
It doesn't really guarantee rights, as every 'right' is followed by a disclaimer a mile long that provides the state with essentially any excuse to violate that 'right'

Example:



1.Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

2.Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Article 10


1.Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2.The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.


Article 11


1.Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

2.No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. this article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.


What law that restricts religion, speech, assembly, association, expression etc can't be justified as 'protecting health, morality, national security, public safety? Why else would anyone even bother making such a law?

Thrymheim
Tuesday, August 19th, 2008, 07:56 AM
What are your thoughts on this? Slavery yes, no? What qualifies as "slavery" IYO? Should compulsory military service be maintained? etc etc?

There isn't any compulsory military service here at the moment.
The dictionary definition of slavery


1. the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty and fortune.
2.The subjection of a person to another person, esp. in being forced into work.
3 the condition of being subject to some influence or habit.
4 Work done in harsh conditions for low pay.

So if we're being cynical that would cover all crappy jobs, marriage, and smoking!

1.No one shall be held in slavery or servitude.

ok when taken at face value

2.No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour.

No forced labour good. No compulsory labour? well I guess a job is compulsory as it is damned hard to get by without one. And I certainly believe that dole claimants should have to do work for their money that would probably count as compulsory labour, so I'm against this part

3.For the purpose of this article the term forced or compulsory labour' shall not include:
(d) any work or service which forms part of normal civic obligations.

Since the "normal civic obligations" are not stated here is the get out cause for the government.