PDA

View Full Version : Are the Irish, the Welsh or the Scottish Germanic?



Hanna
Wednesday, August 13th, 2008, 08:22 PM
I want to know if the Irish, Walesh or the Scottish are germanic? I don't think so.But of cos they're using a lingual term which is not racially significant. Well just a thought I hope no one pissed of with me.

Elgar
Wednesday, August 13th, 2008, 08:37 PM
I want to know if the Irish, Walesh or the Scottish are germanic? I don't think so.But of cos they're using a lingual term which is not racially significant. Well just a thought I hope no one pissed of with me.

No they are Celtic peoples. Here is an interesting article that originally appeared on the BBC:


Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds


They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

The article continues here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm).

BeornWulfWer
Wednesday, August 13th, 2008, 09:00 PM
The case for the Scottish being a country made up of Celtic and Germanic people could be argued, but the Welsh and the Irish are in the majority of Celtic descent.
(Whatever that may be)

In the case of the Scottish, though, they do tend to get annoyed if referred to as 'Germanic', as they see themselves as Celtic or Norse and not "one of those English bast**ds"

:D




The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

....Or, it could suggest the people of Britain have been settled by people after the Ice Age in two directions. One from the coasts of Iberia and onwards through the coasts of west-Britain and Ireland; and the other coming from the mainland of Europe via the land bridge.

This could explain many occurrences which seem "odd" in the face of what is "accepted" history.

Dagna
Wednesday, August 13th, 2008, 10:58 PM
The Irish and Welsh are not Germanic, as Gaelic is not a Germanic language. However, some Scots are Germanic. Scots is a Germanic language, of the West Germanic branch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

SlíNanGael
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 03:52 AM
The Irish and Welsh are not Germanic, as Gaelic is not a Germanic language

Ergo, American-Negroes are Germanic, as English is a Germanic language?

Guntwachar
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 03:56 AM
Ergo, American-Negroes are Germanic, as English is a Germanic language?

Was going to say the same thing in South Africa a part of the black people talk Dutch or even in some parts with a Frisian dialect, in the Dutch Antilles wich is full with blacks they all speak Dutch,or English does this make them Germanic?

Sigurd
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 07:15 AM
Ireland - Historically Celto-Germanic, Linguistically Celtic, Culturally Celtic
Scotland - Historically, Linguistically & Culturally Celto-Germanic (with actually a higher occurence of Germanic than Celtic - at no point in the last 800-900 years were Gaelic speakers in the majority over Scots-speakers, really, for example).
Wales - Historically Celto-Germanic, Linguistically & Culturally Celtic.

Svartljos
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 07:19 AM
Ergo, American-Negroes are Germanic, as English is a Germanic language?

:rolleyes: I think there is an obvious explanation as to why North American Blacks speak English. However, the Welsh who speak Welsh probably come from a long line of people who were Welsh and so on. Ergo, decendants of Celtic people.

Scots on the otherhand, I don't know too much about how it developed. Were they just the Angles that lived in what is modern Scotland? I'm sure there's a varying degree of "germanicness" to people in Scotland, obviously it would be more of a mixture people who consider themselves Welsh.

Rhydderch
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 07:34 AM
at no point in the last 800-900 years were Gaelic speakers in the majority over Scots-speakers, really, for example).Well, that's debateable. But I think we can be pretty confident that Scots speakers have outnumbered Celtic speakers in Scotland for the last 500 years.

OneEnglishNorman
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 08:05 AM
The English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish are all North-Western European peoples. The ethnogenesis of each nation is drawn from the same sources (native British, Celtic, Northern Germanic, Iberian, Anatolian etc) and they differ in that regard only by degrees.

99.9% of all these folk speak English from birth. Some of them can write and speak in a Gaelic language also.

The hard Teutonic-Celtic split of peoples dating from the Anglo-Danish invasions is a hangover from the years of English subjugation over those three nations. It was convenient for the English and is now convenient for "Celts" to have this exist as a widely-held belief.

SlíNanGael
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 01:12 PM
:rolleyes: I think there is an obvious explanation as to why North American Blacks speak English.

Yet it is not obvious why the Norse-Gaels would be considered Celtic because they spoke a Celtic language. What is obvious is that 3 aspects of a people need to be considered when classifying them: Culture, Language, and Ethnicity. When all three of these things are considered, all three peoples (the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh) can be considered partially Germanic.

Dagna
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Ergo, American-Negroes are Germanic, as English is a Germanic language?


Was going to say the same thing in South Africa a part of the black people talk Dutch or even in some parts with a Frisian dialect, in the Dutch Antilles wich is full with blacks they all speak Dutch,or English does this make them Germanic?
No. I believe the American Negroes and the Africans who speak Dutch are not Germanic because they are not ethnically and racially Germanic and they do not speak the native languages belonging to their ancestors. The Scottish and Irish and Welsh who speak Gaelic do however. They have Celtic ancestors who passed down their native language. The Scottish who speak Scots and have Germanic ancestors are Germanic.

OneEnglishNorman
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 03:41 PM
The Scottish and Irish and Welsh who speak Gaelic do however. They have Celtic ancestors who passed down their native language.

The vast majority of Irish, Scots and Welsh have solely spoken English from birth, like their parents and grandparents before them. And even further back.



The Scottish who speak Scots and have Germanic ancestors are Germanic.All Scots have some Germanic ancestors and all Scots speak Scots English. All English have some "Celtic / British" ancestry.

It's a shame that the word British has been contaminated by association with the United Kingdom, as it sums up well the ethnicity of the four Isles nations.

Dagna
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 03:46 PM
The vast majority of Irish, Scots and Welsh have solely spoken English from birth, like their parents and grandparents before them. And even further back.
And? So have the African-Americans.

All Scots have some Germanic ancestors and all Scots speak Scots English. All English have some "Celtic / British" ancestry.

It's a shame that the word British has been contaminated by association with the United Kingdom, as it sums up well the ethnicity of the four Isles nations.
I did not dispute the Germanicity of the Scots. I dispute the Germanicity of the Irish and Welsh. The existence of a Germanic native language of the tribe is one characteristic that defines ethnicity. English is not an Irish or Welsh language, while Scots is a Scottish language.

OneEnglishNorman
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 03:59 PM
I dispute the use of Germanic as a hard definable term outside of the study of linguistics, in a way which places the English & Scottish on one side of a fence and the Irish & Welsh on the other.

Gefjon
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 04:01 PM
The Irish have been traditionally opposed to being counted as Brits or Germanics. They wanna break away from the UK and revive their Celtic culture. ;) Go to Irish-Nationalism.net and say the Irish are Germanic, the Irish will be laughing at ya.

OneEnglishNorman
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Go to Irish-Nationalism.net and say the Irish are Germanic, the Irish will be laughing at ya.

Probably, they would chuckle.

Ask 100 Scots (ordinary Scots, not those on racialist forums) if they "feel Germanic" and see where that gets you.

Dagna
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 04:19 PM
Probably, they would chuckle.

Ask 100 Scots (ordinary Scots, not those on racialist forums) if they "feel Germanic" and see where that gets you.
Ask 100 Americans of Germanic heritage if they "feel Germanic" (ordinary Americans, not those on racialist forums) and see where that gets you. I believe many Scandinavians also frown upon the terminology "Germanic", but that doesn't say anything. They live their lives as Germanics, speak the Germanic languages of their ancestors and they are Germanic. If adopting a foreign language to the point next generations speak it as "native" makes a people Germanic, then African-Americans are as "Germanic" as the Irish and Welsh. The Irish are trying to revive Gaelic because it is the language of their ancestors, not English.

Hanna
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 04:45 PM
I believe many Scandinavians also frown upon the terminology "Germanic",


No one in my whole ancestry refereed themselves as Germanic but vikings.:D

Galloglaich
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 04:58 PM
Not to niggle unnecessarily here, but the Welsh language is not a Gaelic language.


On another note, I have met and or corresponded with a number of Scots through the Clan Donald society who are becoming much more interested in the Norse heritage of not only the Clan Donald and their kin; but also of Scotland in general. There is also a significant Anglo heritage in certain sections of Scotland. I concur with the idea that Scotland is "Celtogermanic" (but I wouldn't ever say "Germanic").


To say that Ireland or Wales is Celtogermanic would be to push the envelope even further (and IMO, too far), but in certain instances the case could be made for claiming Norse or Norman heritage and influence.

Cuchulain
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 12:53 AM
Not to niggle unnecessarily here, but the Welsh language is not a Gaelic language.


On another note, I have met and or corresponded with a number of Scots through the Clan Donald society who are becoming much more interested in the Norse heritage of not only the Clan Donald and their kin; but also of Scotland in general. There is also a significant Anglo heritage in certain sections of Scotland. I concur with the idea that Scotland is "Celtogermanic" (but I wouldn't ever say "Germanic").


To say that Ireland or Wales is Celtogermanic would be to push the envelope even further (and IMO, too far), but in certain instances the case could be made for claiming Norse or Norman heritage and influence.

Do Gaelic languages correspond with the divisions between P-Celtic and Q-Celtic?

Sigurd
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 01:06 AM
On clan names:

Of course you have all your Mc/Mac's, even in the Orkneys, but just how many traditional Scottish surnames have little or nothing to do with Celtic influences, many clans have Germanic surnames, and some "Mac" clans just took a Germanic name and instead of -son added "Mac-" (such as Anderson/MacAndrew)...

Here go a few non-Celtic clan names (list not exhaustive)

Campbell (could be either Norman or Gaelic), Anderson (Anglo-Saxon/Norse), Barclay (Anglo-Norman), Fraser (Anglo-Norman, de Fresel/de Friselle/de Freseliere), Boyle (Anglo-Norman, de Beauvilles), Irvine (Anglo-Saxon or Norman), Morrison (Norse), Scrymgeour (Old English), Sinclair (Norman, derived from the village/town of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte), Swinton (Saxon), Stuart/Stewart (Norman), MacLaren (either Norse or Gaelic), MacDonald (Gaelic-Norse mixed, trace it back to Domhnall mac Raighnall - Donald, son of Reginald. Somerled, to whom both the Donalds and the MacDougalls trace their ancestry back, had himself a Norse name and Norse ancestry). Etc etc. etc.



All Scots have some Germanic ancestors and all Scots speak Scots English. All English have some "Celtic / British" ancestry.

Scots and Scottish English are not the same thing. Scots per se, may it be regionally very varied, has words that the English language does not have, and has definite different spellings, and even often uses different words for easy words. Especially the Doric spoken here in Aberdeenshire - and it gets worse in the countryside....

I was talking to a Scot from Ellon on several occasions in my first attempt at 2nd year at halls, he was very interested in the whole matter, the fact that he was partially Scottish, partially German, helped a general interest in things both Celtic and Germanic. Having put aeons of study into this, he understood fairly well that Scotland's heritage was Celtogermanic, and pointed out to me that Scots is not only an own language, but the common ancestral language it and English share, Scots is closer to than south of Hadrian's wall - i.e. it's not the Scots that speak bad English, it's the English that speak bad Scots, if you will. As he studied linguistics, and has put a good bit of study into the whole matter, I have no reason to doubt his judgement.


I dispute the use of Germanic as a hard definable term outside of the study of linguistics, in a way which places the English & Scottish on one side of a fence and the Irish & Welsh on the other.

The closest you're going to get to a purely Celtic area in the world is going to be either Britanny, or with reservations, Cornwall. A case for the Isle of Man could be made though... And considering that the Celts were once present in central Europe, and quite prominently so, quite a bit of culture, especially the martial arts practiced locally, seem to be somewhat derivative of a Celtic substrate. So, there's a case to be made for Celtic AND Germanic influence in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Austria ... albeit a different type of Celtic than that found on the British Isles. Anyway, why did you think I had "Celtogermanic" in my Meta-Ethnicity. :p


Do Gaelic languages correspond with the divisions between P-Celtic and Q-Celtic?

One of them is the "Insular", the other the "Continental" one, can never remember which. One of the two has however disappeared, and the other Celtic speech is still spoken. So, no the divisions between Welsh and Gaelic are not the same as those between P-Celtic and Q-Celtic. ;)

SlíNanGael
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 01:17 AM
One of them is the "Insular", the other the "Continental" one

Not entirely correct, as Welsh and Cornish are P-Celtic, whereas the Gaelic languages are Q-Celtic. The Insular vs. Continental divide is simply geographical whereas the Q/P distinction is based on trends within the languages.

On the continental side, Breton would be P whereas Gaulish would have been Q.

Sigurd
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 01:29 AM
Not entirely correct, as Welsh and Cornish are P-Celtic, whereas the Gaelic languages are Q-Celtic. The Insular vs. Continental divide is simply geographical whereas the Q/P distinction is based on trends within the languages.

On the continental side, Breton would be P whereas Gaulish would have been Q.

Thanks for clarifying that one again, been a while since I last checked my books on linguistics. (And yes, I do have some...) :o

Galloglaich
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 02:25 AM
Not entirely correct, as Welsh and Cornish are P-Celtic, whereas the Gaelic languages are Q-Celtic. The Insular vs. Continental divide is simply geographical whereas the Q/P distinction is based on trends within the languages.

On the continental side, Breton would be P whereas Gaulish would have been Q.

This is what I have been led to believe as well. Gaelic is a bit phonetically "harder" (not as in difficulty) in the pronunciation of certain consonants and diphthongs. I have taken classes in both Irish and Scottish Gaelic and while I have never formally studied Welsh, I can tell the difference right off (differing vocabulary aside).

Guntwachar
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 02:46 AM
I dont know much yet about the scottish and brittons just starting to get in to it, but i was watching a docu about the scottish highland clans and one of the clans The Fraser clan is started by a knight from Normandy.
And it seems he was the only Germanic there his followers were probably celtics.

Can it be that Germanics ruled over a civilisation that was almost entirely celtic?

Galloglaich
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 03:12 AM
On clan names:

Of course you have all your Mc/Mac's, even in the Orkneys, but just how many traditional Scottish surnames have little or nothing to do with Celtic influences, many clans have Germanic surnames, and some "Mac" clans just took a Germanic name and instead of -son added "Mac-" (such as Anderson/MacAndrew)...

Here go a few non-Celtic clan names (list not exhaustive)

Campbell (could be either Norman or Gaelic), Anderson (Anglo-Saxon/Norse), Barclay (Anglo-Norman), Fraser (Anglo-Norman, de Fresel/de Friselle/de Freseliere), Boyle (Anglo-Norman, de Beauvilles), Irvine (Anglo-Saxon or Norman), Morrison (Norse), Scrymgeour (Old English), Sinclair (Norman, derived from the village/town of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte), Swinton (Saxon), Stuart/Stewart (Norman), MacLaren (either Norse or Gaelic), MacDonald (Gaelic-Norse mixed, trace it back to Domhnall mac Raighnall - Donald, son of Reginald. Somerled, to whom both the Donalds and the MacDougalls trace their ancestry back, had himself a Norse name and Norse ancestry). Etc etc. etc....

Great reply.
My mother's mother (rest her soul) would be angry at me if I didn't mention the MacLeods, who are descended from Leod, son of Olav the Black- 13th century Norse king of Man & the Isles. A good friend of mine would be angry if I didn't mention Clan Gunn, who are ultimately descended from the Olav as well. Henderson has also hypothesized that many of the smaller sept names (particularly in the North & West) that contain the Gill/Gillie prefix may reflect a practice of Norse converts to Christianity adopting a saint's name after being amalgamated into a Gaelic setting.



The closest you're going to get to a purely Celtic area in the world is going to be either Britanny, or with reservations, Cornwall. A case for the Isle of Man could be made though... And considering that the Celts were once present in central Europe, and quite prominently so, quite a bit of culture, especially the martial arts practiced locally, seem to be somewhat derivative of a Celtic substrate. So, there's a case to be made for Celtic AND Germanic influence in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Austria ... albeit a different type of Celtic than that found on the British Isles. Anyway, why did you think I had "Celtogermanic" in my Meta-Ethnicity. :p...

I'm glad you brought that up. I had considered mentioning the continental Celtic influence in some otherwise "Germanic" areas, but was afraid of a whole new can o' worms cropping up. It's just a hypothesis, but I think if we were able to properly research the matter in antiquity many of us here might have to list "Celtogermanic" as their Meta-Ethnicity from a purely ancestral POV (other factors aside).


...Can it be that Germanics ruled over a civilisation that was almost entirely celtic?

I would say that in general that would be an improper way to look at it, or at the least to phrase it. I would say it was often more synergistic in nature. Keep in mind that in most cases (and definitely the case with the Frasers) the Germanic progenitors adopted a traditionally Celtic lifestyle and culture over time.

Oswiu
Monday, August 18th, 2008, 04:58 AM
The closest you're going to get to a purely Celtic area in the world is going to be either Britanny, or with reservations, Cornwall.
Breizh: Celticised Atlantidish Gaulish substrate, Romanised Brythonic (i.e. Celticised Atlantidish) adstrate, chuck in a few Normans and Alans, and a few Frenchmen from more recent centuries.
Cornwall, however, has had a lot of nonCornish input, even in Mediaeval times. The 'Cornish Renaissance' was led by a Scotsman!

A case for the Isle of Man could be made though...
Good Gods, no! Thoroughly colonised by Norsemen! And spent the early modern period under Lancashire rule, via the Earls Stanley of (West) Derby.

One of them is the "Insular", the other the "Continental" one, can never remember which. One of the two has however disappeared, and the other Celtic speech is still spoken. So, no the divisions between Welsh and Gaelic are not the same as those between P-Celtic and Q-Celtic. ;)
Not quite. P and Q come first. That's why 'four' is Cathair in Irish and Pedwar in Welsh. All known Celtic languages on the Continent are P Celtic. There are only possible hints on Q Celtic having been spoken there. Gaulish (from Anatolia to Iberia and Artois) was all rather uniform, and very close to British, the ancestor of modern Welsh, Cornish, and Breton.
Insular merely refers to tongues not spoken on the Continent, and is more geographical than linguistic a term.
Only Irish was Q Celtic, and gave us modern Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic and Manx Gaelic.
There are indications that P Celtic tongues were spoken in Ireland before and alongside Gaelic, known as 'Ivernian'.

The Horned God
Monday, August 18th, 2008, 05:36 AM
^ I'd never even heard of Ivernian!

Here's what wikipedia has to say about it anyway.


Before Gaelic dialects evolved in Ireland, some allege that the inhabitants spoke "Ivernic", particularly in Munster. It receives its name from a Gallo-Belgic group known as the Iverni (later Érainn), attested in Ptolemy's 2nd century Geography.

This hypothesis may be supported by what seems to be a brief mention of such a language in the 9th-century Irish dictionary Sanas Cormaic, under the names Iarnnbélrae, Iarnbélrae, and Iarmbérla, which, if treated as Old Irish, means "Iron-speech". The early 20th century Gaelic scholar T. F. O'Rahilly proposed that this language, which he called Ivernic, was the source for these loanwords.[5] If such a language existed, its speakers were eventually absorbed into the Goidelic-speaking population, and by the time the Vikings had established Limerick in about 850, only the Goidelic language Irish was spoken.[6] However, most linguists now explain these Brythonic loanwords as borrowings directly from Welsh, noting that ogham inscriptions attest to an early Irish presence in Wales.

Cormac mac Cuilennáin, king and bishop of Cashel in Munster in Ireland, born 836, died 908, wrote a large Glossary which said that the "Iron-speech" was "dense and difficult" and had recently died out and that two words of it were remembered: ond = "stone" and fern = "anything good".

Source. (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikip edia.org%2Fwiki%2FPrimitive_Irish%23cite _note-6)

Rhydderch
Monday, August 18th, 2008, 12:12 PM
Gaulish would have been Q.As far as I remember, Gaulish is believed to have been P-Celtic. In fact the same is true of all the Continental Celtic languages of Roman times, with the probable exception of a language then spoken in North-Western Spain.

Oswiu
Monday, August 18th, 2008, 05:59 PM
^ I'd never even heard of Ivernian!

A very well kept secret. O'Rahilly went into it in depth in the 1940s. He was at Trinity and very well thought of a scholar, apparently.

I suppose it's just not politically popular an idea, the fact that you (and my Irish half of ancestors) all spoke Welsh before you learnt Gaelic! ;)

The Wiki article should really have gone into the Ptolemy description of Ierne - the river names are solidly P-Celtic, apparently, with such obviously P-Celtic tribal names as Brigantes and Menapii in uncontested dominion.

Later Irish tradition has the P-Celtic Fir Domnainn (Dumnonii), Fir Bolg (Belgae), and various remnants of Belgic Ui Bairche in southern Leinster. The very Ulaid and Erainn were originally Brythonic speakers according to O'Rahilly.

I've never seen a decent refutation of the man's work either. It's just been deliberately ignored. Of course, none of it goes against the clear fact that the Irish stand apart as the least diluted UP group here in the West, but it does 'make you think' as they say!


As far as I remember, Gaulish is believed to have been P-Celtic. In fact the same is true of all the Continental Celtic languages of Roman times, with the probable exception of a language then spoken in North-Western Spain.

By the way, I've never seen any decent 'proof' of this Galician thing. Just conjecture and supposition - if rather solid in its good sense. Do you know of anything concrete to back it up? Placename and onomastic evidence in Hispania? :confused:

Ćgir
Monday, August 18th, 2008, 07:34 PM
It is also important to understand that many of the Gaelic speakers in the western highlands and islands of Scotland are genetically Germanic. Professor Bryan Sykes has looked for example at the various chiefs of clan Donald (the great preserver of Gaelic culture) and has proven that they descended not form the Irish Kinks as their clan history states but from Norse Vikings. As well if you look at some of the most “Celtic” surnames in Scotland like MacLeod, MacLauchlan, MacSorley, MacRanald ect. ect. You will see that the base of the names if you remove the Mac prefix are in fact Norse and not Celtic. The area of the Celtic fringe in Scotland is Germanic. Now as for the lowlands and southern uplands in Scotland you find a genetic mix of British, Anglo-Saxon, Norman, and Danish ancestry . The language and culture in the in this area is clearly Germanic. So I would argue that Scotland is very Germanic and if it were not for disputes with England they would most of the population would probably agree.

As for Ireland and Wales, well they are clearly culturally Celtic, however there has been a great amount of genetic and cultural influence which has come from Germanic peoples: Vikings, Normans or English. In Wales you can find the strongest Celtic culture as their language is strong, in Ireland they talk a good game about being Celtic but I have found very few who know much of their Gaelic language.

Oswiu
Monday, August 18th, 2008, 07:40 PM
It is also important to understand that many of the Gaelic speakers in the western highlands and islands of Scotland are genetically Germanic.
Sure, but don't overdo it! They did after all end up adopting the local language - which you don't do from corpses! Who did the new lords marry? Who were their peasants? Why is folk culture there more dominated by things with parallels in the rest of the Celtic world, or is that a false impression created by centuries of Celtomania?

I would be the last to willfully diminish the impact of the Sons of Somerled, but these things have to be moderated.

in Ireland they talk a good game about being Celtic but I have found very few who know much of their Gaelic language.Hehe, quite! None of my relatives over there know a damned thing of their history beyond some vaguely remembered stuff about Brian Boroimhe!

Rhydderch
Wednesday, August 20th, 2008, 02:13 PM
By the way, I've never seen any decent 'proof' of this Galician thing. Just conjecture and supposition - if rather solid in its good sense. Do you know of anything concrete to back it up? Placename and onomastic evidence in Hispania?It's been a while since I've read up on it, but yes I think the evidence was of that nature. I don't remember how conclusive it was though.

On the question of Ivernian, perhaps Gaelic was the earlier language in Ireland, but then P-Celtic speakers introduced iron from Britain (and maybe the Continent in some cases). This latter language might never have displaced Gaelic among the native population; perhaps it was spoken as an elite language for some centuries in the areas conquered by the P-Celtic invaders (as well as being a first language among the descendants of the invaders themselves); this would explain why it completely died out in favour of Gaelic.

Huginnsanvil
Friday, August 5th, 2011, 08:21 PM
I think the differences between them are say less than between the Greeks and Germanics. They shared common continental borders, an Indo European root for the languages - daoine is folk/people which is related to diot/theodiscus, Tarann was the God of thunder and a great deal of other traits be they physical, sociological or otherwise. If anything the ancient Gauls whose animism was also prevalent amongst the Germanic tribes were far in advance of the Germanic tribesmen of the 1st century BC. The Gauls worshipped a panoply of deities most of whom are forgotten but Belenos in Gaul became Beli in Ancient Britain. Maponos became Mabon and so on. Interestingly there is a theory that one of Heimdall's names Rig might have been borrowed from the Irish or some Celtic source as that is a Celtic word for king and many of the tales mirror each other in their underlying meanings and content. In the mythopoetic night all cats are grey and all that. they have even found plaid patterns in Jutland before the time of the Romans.

Are they Germanic though - the answer must be no but it would be impossible to untangle these two cultures which are inextricably bound by blood and history. Modern Icelanders can testify to that. Good old Kjartan.

NatRev
Tuesday, August 16th, 2011, 03:42 PM
I'd say it's hard to say, I've met Welsh, Irish and Scottish that look 'Germanic' and basically 'English looking'. Yet I've also met Irish and Welsh that are darker in eyes and hair.

Rachel Allen, an Irish TV chef, is in my opinion, one of the most beautiful women alive today. She seems to me very Germanic and I think if one could trace her ancestry far back, it may even be Viking in origin:

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00268/3001_Rachel_G_268904t.jpg

James Martin, an English TV chef, again in my opinion, seems to have a very 'English' look about him. He's from the north of England so again his ancestry could be Viking too:

http://www.tmcentertainment.co.uk/images/speaker-index/SpeakOutJamesMartin.jpg

60's Scottish pop star Lulu to me looks typically Norse. Would she look 'out of place' in Stockholm or Oslo perhaps?

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/60s-lulu-431x300.jpg


Catherin Zeta Jones has a distinctive Welsh look about her, maybe even pre-Celtic Mediterranean types:

http://www.hotncurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catherine-Zeta-Jones-4.jpg


Linguistically, I think Scottish and Irish people 'sound' Germanic or partially Norse.

I have a German friend who has lived in England for over 25 years yet I first thought he was Scottish! ;)

TSPagan
Wednesday, August 31st, 2011, 07:56 AM
I consider myself Nordic/Celtic, I think there is a grand distinction.

Todesritter
Wednesday, August 31st, 2011, 08:44 AM
Why not the Cornish? :D

On this subject, of how Germanic one might consider various Celtic populations:

If one goes back with our magic time window further to the bronze & iron age, there is substantial evidence this flow has at times gone the other direction, or been harder to describe simply as nominally Celtic folk being nearly wholly traceable to some mid-range point of Germanic/Norse genetic influx, as the Germanic gene pool itself has often been a stabilized mix with original Germanic flowing from the heartland and fusing with the older Celtic stock to the West, and South (and possibly the East as well, with East Germanics from the north & later West Slavs from the east pushing over but not eliminating original Celtic stock - there seems evidence that some of the best looking of the rural Slovaks for instance may be genetically almost wholly unaltered bronze age eastern Celtic or East Germanic, though now culturally/linguistically West Slavic); e.g. the charming Allemanic folk on either side of the Swiss border I don't think any modern German who is not some sort of weird eugenic fetishist would label 'less German' seem to be able to trace their predominant characteristically unique <within the Deutschsprachgebiet> skull shape a hallmark to being predominantly descended from the original pre-Roman, pre-Germanic Celtic people, though with substantial ancient Germanic admixture and thoroughly Germanized culturally and linguistically long before the Roman Empire was done.


Not that I disagree with your statements on the basis of what I've read on this period, but rather, just wanting to add my two cents to parsing the complexity of the interrelationship over time between various Celtic & Germanic peoples.

Caoimhe
Wednesday, August 31st, 2011, 06:37 PM
Catherin Zeta Jones has a distinctive Welsh look about her, maybe even pre-Celtic Mediterranean types:

http://www.hotncurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catherine-Zeta-Jones-4.jpg


There is nothing distinctively Welsh about her. Her type is found nearly all over Britain.

Germaniathane
Saturday, May 13th, 2017, 07:14 AM
I want to know if the Irish, Walesh or the Scottish are germanic? I don't think so.But of cos they're using a lingual term which is not racially significant. Well just a thought I hope no one pissed of with me.

You are right, in this sense that the Irish, Welsh and Highland Scottish are predominantly Celtic (Atlantic branch). The most common Y-DNA haplogroup amongst them is R1b-L21 which was brought there by Indo-European Celtic speakers in the Bronze Age via Central Europe. By the end of the Bronze Age, over 90% of British and Irish males belonged to the R1b-L21/S145. However they do have a Germanic admixture due to a long time co-mingling with their Germanic conquerors (Sassenach/Anglo-Saxons) who are from England and Lowland Scotland where the most common Y-DNA haplogroup is the R1b-S21/U106 as it is in the Netherlands, Northwest Germany and parts of Denmark.

Germaniathane
Saturday, May 13th, 2017, 07:29 AM
The English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish are all North-Western European peoples. The ethnogenesis of each nation is drawn from the same sources (native British, Celtic, Northern Germanic, Iberian, Anatolian etc) and they differ in that regard only by degrees.

99.9% of all these folk speak English from birth. Some of them can write and speak in a Gaelic language also.

The hard Teutonic-Celtic split of peoples dating from the Anglo-Danish invasions is a hangover from the years of English subjugation over those three nations. It was convenient for the English and is now convenient for "Celts" to have this exist as a widely-held belief.

What? Over 50% of English and Lowland Scottish males belong to Germanic paternal lineages (I1a, I2a2a-Z161, R1a-L664, R1a-Z284, R1b-S21/U106). The usual for England is 55%-65%. So sorry there is no hangover.