PDA

View Full Version : Classify Napoleon Bonaparte



Azdaja
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 06:43 AM
http://www.napoleon.org/en/popup_zoom.asp?identity=156480&type=object

My friend and I were discussing what race Napoleon may have been. I know all we have is paintings and no photos, but based on the above picture what would you guys say?
(I think alpine/med)

Stríbog
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 07:12 AM
Arthur Kemp says that Napoleon was Nordic, which I find very hard to believe. He was Corsican, and actually of Italian descent. All contemporary paintings show him with very dark hair. His skin seems moderately light, but not as light as a Nordic. I would say he is predominantly Mediterranean, but the very short stature and curious round head do suggest some kind of Alpine, perhaps?

Rudra Chai Siphra
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 07:25 AM
Does he give any reasons as to why he put napolean as a Nordic? ( And I agree being corisican kinda makes you a med. ) I thought based upon that painting (and some others on the same site) Nordic-Alpine, as some other paintings show lighter skin.

GreenHeart
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 09:04 AM
I see some either nordic or med facial elements, but he doesn't exactly seem quite dark enough to be med, so I would say alpine/nordic mix.

Ederico
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 06:35 PM
Napoleon Nordic? That is the first time I heard this, I am no expert, so please tell me what is Nordic in him?

BodewinTheSilent
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 08:27 PM
The fact that he was born in Corsica, does not prove that he was non-Nordic. Napoleon's other distinguished countryman, General Paoli, was tall, fair-complexioned, blond-haired and blue-eyed. Napoleon was considered to be predominantly Nordic by anthropologists such as Günther. Baron de Méneval said Napoleon had:

"piercing grey eyes, a straight nose and fine chesnut hair..."

D. Seward Napoleon and Hitler (1996) p. 89.

In addition to this, Napoleon's complexion was described as being "marble-white." As far as his skull is concerned, Woltmann examined Naploeon's death mask and funerary bust, and determined that although his head was small, it was still dolichocephalic to mesocephalic, and not of Alpine, brachycephalic type. This reveals the problems of relying solely on paintings.

If you want to get into geneological discussions, then it should be observed that several members of his family were tall. I would also note that he was of Germanic-Lombardic ancestry, as Woltmann observes:

"Besonders interessant ist die Herkunft der Familie Napoleons. Nach den Forschungen Passerinis stammte die korsische Familie von den Bonaparte in Florenz, deren Vorfahren die berühmten Cadolingi, Grafen von Pistoja, waren. Ihr Stammvater ist Guglielmo, genannt Bonaparte, ein Sohn Gianfaldos, der 1260 Ratsherr in Florenz war. 1529 siedelte ein Francesco di Giovanni Bonaparte nach Ajaccio über, von dem die Familie Napoleons abstammte. Die Grafen Cadolingi waren langobardischen Ursprungs. Cadolingi = dsch. Kadeling. Gianfaldo ist zusammengesetzt aus Giano (= Giovanni) und ahd. Faldo; Bonaparte ist eine abgeänderte Form des langobardischen Bonipert."

Ludwig Woltmann Die Germanen in Frankreich (1907) p. 86.

Napoleon was fair-haired until his thirties, when his hair turned chestnut brown (not black), as noted above. He was not particularly tall. He seems perhaps to have had an admixture of another type, not clearly discernable. For that reason, he was predominantly, but not purely Nordic.

http://www4.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr27_files/napoleon_1796.jpg

Note his facial features and hair colour, in this portrait of him, dated 1796.

GreenHeart
Monday, December 30th, 2002, 07:56 AM
Very pretty hair color.

Hellstar
Wednesday, January 1st, 2003, 10:24 AM
Well the paintings are total different, And I dont really give a fuck what he was- my intuition tells me his a good example of a Sub-Nordic type.


Very pretty hair color.
You been hanging out to much in America or something?:ultrawink

GreenHeart
Wednesday, January 1st, 2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by HELLSTAR
Well the paintings are total different, And I dont really give a fuck what he was- my intuition tells me his a good example of a Sub-Nordic type.


You been hanging out to much in America or something?:ultrawink

No I really like strawberry blond. It's my favorite hair color besides blond :really?

Hellstar
Wednesday, January 1st, 2003, 12:21 PM
I thought his hair was light brown?

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, January 2nd, 2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by NordicPower88
I see some either nordic or med facial elements, but he doesn't exactly seem quite dark enough to be med, so I would say alpine/nordic mix.

He was one of the greatest military commanders in history and again....there are nothing such as a " med " southern Europeans are mostly old European with Indo European components going back thousands of years.. the reason there are more " dark " SE are the % of Old Europeans present there, anyway Old Euros lived allover Europe that is why Great Britain has many " meds " aswell or France or Germany for that matter, is this so difficult?

maskedhate
Sunday, October 2nd, 2005, 07:05 AM
Maybe Med/Alpinid, cloud it be?

distinct_rebel
Sunday, October 2nd, 2005, 10:16 AM
On first inspection, his phenotype appears to be influenced by those of a Dinaricised Mediterranid and an Alpinid/Nordid mix (where the Alpinid predominates in the second of these components). His facial morphology, particularly his nasal profile, bears a close resemblance to that of Leonardo Da Vinci, although Da Vinci is clearly more Dinarid.

distinct_rebel
Sunday, October 2nd, 2005, 02:26 PM
http://www.houseofwaterdancer.com/images/art/Leonardo-Da-Vinci/leonardo-da-vinci.JPG

visigodo
Saturday, November 12th, 2005, 08:11 AM
Günther classify him as Nordid but frankly speaking he made a wrong classification.

Alpinid with West-Mediterranid admixture I think is a good option.

visigodo
Saturday, November 12th, 2005, 08:23 AM
Here is the picture were Günther classify him as Nordid.

Siegfried
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 09:13 PM
Günther classify him as Nordid but frankly speaking he made a wrong classification.

To some people, being an important historical figure is a "pass for Nordic for free" card ;)

OdinThor
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 09:18 PM
Here is the picture were Günther classify him as Nordid.

The picture says, Napoleon had bright eyes and blond hair as a child.

Is that common under meditereaneans?

Edward SC
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 11:48 PM
Blond hair is very common in mediterranid people. I was blonde when I was a child, like my mother and my cousins. The nordicists say that all important people is nordic to support their stupids theories. Napoleon looks west-med/alpinid to me.

OdinThor
Tuesday, January 24th, 2006, 12:25 AM
Blond hair is very common in mediterranid people. I was blonde when I was a child, like my mother and my cousins.

But thats probably because you have nordish admixture, too.:thumbup

Sigurd
Tuesday, January 24th, 2006, 05:27 AM
Nordid is definitely wrong. He looks mostly Alpinid, but if he had fair hair in childhood, then one can make an argument for Sub-Nordic; with the Alpinid part predominating, of course.

Weg
Tuesday, January 24th, 2006, 09:15 AM
Napoleon was slightly brachycephalic, which is hardly a Nordid feature.

http://www.1789-1815.com/constant.htm



Napoléon dépeint par son valet de chambre, Constant

[...]

Son front était très élevé et découvert; il avait peu de cheveux, surtout sur les tempes; mais ils étaient très fins et très doux. Il les avait châtains et les yeux d'un beau bleu, qui peignaient d'une manière incroyable les diverses émotions dont il était agité, tantôt extrêmement doux et caressants, tantôt sévères et même durs

[...]

Sa tête était très forte, ayant vingt-deux pouces de circonférence; elle était un peu plus longue que large, par conséquent un peu aplatie sur les tempes; [...]


My own translation. ;)



Naopleon described by his manservant, Constant

[...]

His forehead was very high and there was no hair on it; he had few hair, especially of the temples; but they were very thin and soft. His hair were chestnut and his eyes were of a beautiful blue, that showed in an incredible way the different emotions he had, either extremely sweets [the eyes] and cherishing, either severe and even rough [...]

He had a big head, twenty two inches * in circumference; it was a little bit longer than broad, therefore the temples were slightly flattened; [...]


* 22 inches = 55.88 cm

Waarnemer
Tuesday, January 24th, 2006, 09:30 AM
Napoleon is not even in the slightest way nordid. He is mediterranid - westalpinid

Skerritt
Tuesday, January 24th, 2006, 01:39 PM
I was going to say French Alpine & Noric but the latters blondism would have been saturated by a darker pigment (after childhood) which would make him appear more Dinaric.

OdinThor
Tuesday, January 24th, 2006, 10:41 PM
There is nordic in him. I cant see much mediterranean. His pigmentation is in all paintings very light. Look at his Eyebrowes in this picture:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=40111&d=1128233133 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=40111&d=1128233133)

His broad face and brachycephaly (although he looks quite different in some of the pictures) makes him predominantly Alpinid. Like Sigurd said, Sub-Nordic could be it.

Sigurd
Wednesday, January 25th, 2006, 12:01 AM
Napoleon was slightly brachycephalic, which is hardly a Nordid feature.

Not generally; but Borreby's for example, are known for a higher cephalic index.

But even morphologically, Napoleon does not represent much of a Nordic.

Oswiu
Thursday, January 26th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Questions of art history come into play here more than anthropology! A Russian historian I know once remarked to me of society portrait painters in the Age of Enlightenment that the pictures almost replicated the same face every time, with the only differences being noticed in the different badges of honour and rank! As these were the principal things that patrons wanted recording, they were quite happy to leave anything else to the whim of the artist!
As a bit of an artist myself, it's clear that everyone has their own style, and if I drew somebody, the result might bear more resemblance to other portraits I had done, rather than to another artist's portrait of the same person.
Who is the best artist in the pictures above? David seems most realistic to me, he is very anxious to correctly capture the surroundings of Boney, his furniture and so on, showing his near-photographic skill. Some of the other paintings seem more concerned with following classical canons of art than true portraiture.
What is Napoleon on David's picture? Looks a bit like Mussolini to me!
Was he a pure Corsican, do we know?

The Black Prince
Thursday, January 26th, 2006, 11:09 PM
Questions of art history come into play here more than anthropology! A Russian historian I know once remarked to me of society portrait painters in the Age of Enlightenment that the pictures almost replicated the same face every time, with the only differences being noticed in the different badges of honour and rank! As these were the principal things that patrons wanted recording, they were quite happy to leave anything else to the whim of the artist!

Yes thats true I think, if I see paintings(Renaissance and age of Enlightment period) of old Dutch, you can easily notice for instance that they all have the same long mostly downtipped nose (Roman-Greek).

Of course you can never be sure how they all really looked like, but in those days the higher social classes where in awe of the old Romans and Greeks so apparantely their faces on paintings therefore resemble quite well the old Greek/Roman busts. :D

MockTurtle
Wednesday, August 6th, 2008, 07:08 AM
Originally born on the island of Corsica. His family background on his father's side was aristocratic, which should be significant in matters of classification. Difficult to tell for certain, but it seems that his eyes were blue (a darker blue). Any thoughts?

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs5/napoleon2.jpg

http://www.lecoindelenigme.com/image/napoleon.jpg

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs5/napoleon9.jpg

Perhaps honorary Nordic? ;)

Allenson
Wednesday, August 6th, 2008, 05:23 PM
Most of the visages of him that I've seen lead me to think that he was an Alpinid with a Dinarid strain--evident in his nose and perhaps resulting in a slightly longer face than a 'typical Alpine'.

So yeah, an honorary Nordid for certain. ;)

Flash Voyager
Wednesday, August 6th, 2008, 05:50 PM
I agree with the post above. He looks like a stereotypical Frenchman.

vikingblood
Thursday, August 7th, 2008, 04:34 AM
That third picture makes him look more german than french... Whereas in the other two he looks like a typical Frenchman.

Crimson Guard
Thursday, August 7th, 2008, 05:01 AM
Looks like what he is, Italian. Corsica belonged to Italy before being sold to France, and his ancestry came from Italy. His surname loosely means Lion of Naples.

MockTurtle
Thursday, August 7th, 2008, 07:01 AM
Most of the visages of him that I've seen lead me to think that he was an Alpinid with a Dinarid strain--evident in his nose and perhaps resulting in a slightly longer face than a 'typical Alpine'.

I think you're probably correct; although I do think that perhaps a West Mediterranean strain is present to some degree? It's not uncommon in the regions where his distant ancestry supposedly originates.

Also, is it possible that he received some Nordish influences from his father's side? His father was of aristocratic descent, and according to McCulloch this is the most likely place that Nordish would be located given his 'Corsican' background.

Apart from this, where do you think he would fit in the Nordish Scale of Assimilability (http://www.racialcompact.com/averageisdestiny.html)? Maybe a 6.5?

Gestr
Saturday, September 26th, 2009, 07:07 AM
He's mostly alpine like the typical Frenchman--and certainly a xanthochroi.

Why is it so important to classify every historical figure as nordic?

The nordic phenotype is only very prevalent in Sweden.

Saxnot
Tuesday, October 6th, 2009, 03:47 AM
Günther classify him as Nordid but frankly speaking he made a wrong classification.

Günther's mistakes are so bizarrely gross sometimes. For instances, he speaks of the musical talents of the Dinarics, and go so far as to cite several examples (Haydn, Mozart, Berlioz, Chopin ect.), but fails to extend the same courtesy to Alpines or Alpinids (Bach? Beethoven? Schumann? Schubert?). How can you make such an omission, even when accounting for personal bias? (if i'm not mistaken Günther was Nordic with some Dinaric in him). His psychological analysis of each racial type is amazingly accurate in so far as my personal experience is concerned. Indeed, the company i work for has almost every single racial type among its employees so i can just observe their behavior and study their psychology almost every day. I would think this aspect of racial theory would be the hardest but it is here where his work actually shines.

Hauke Haien
Tuesday, October 6th, 2009, 11:13 AM
Napoléon's death mask should give a somewhat more accurate impression than the various portraits influenced by artistic licence:

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/25905/1_scan0035.jpg

Gestr
Tuesday, October 6th, 2009, 01:54 PM
His death mask shows a strong Dinaric component (from his father) mixed with Alpine, and slight Nordic admixture (his blue eyes). The classic "Roman nose" is there. He certainly doesn't look Nordic, and his Corsican father wasn't Nordic either. Many classical sculptures of Italians misrepresented as "Nordic" (Julius Caesar) are cleary Dinaric/West Mediterranean people. Painters from that period were actually very accurate and realistic in their depictions.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe he's racially similar to the Arabids in Sicily and Calabria; however, he's certainly no Viking or Max Von Sydow--not in the least. Rather he's a classical Roman type, similar to the Patricians.

Nordlander
Tuesday, October 6th, 2009, 02:31 PM
If the old paintings are to be believed Bonaparte looked about as nordik as obama ; well I am being a little humorous ,but he looked like an Italian to me ,which I believe he was.He was a swarthy little runt

Gestr
Saturday, October 10th, 2009, 01:06 PM
If the old paintings are to be believed Bonaparte looked about as nordik as obama ; well I am being a little humorous ,but he looked like an Italian to me ,which I believe he was.He was a swarthy little runt

I wouldn't say he's swarthy. His skin is fair and his eyes are light. He looks like a Northern Italian or Frenchman. Dinaric and West Alpine blend--a Celt in short. But I agree, he's not Nordic.

Nordlander
Saturday, October 10th, 2009, 02:02 PM
I wouldn't say he's swarthy. His skin is fair and his eyes are light. He looks like a Northern Italian or Frenchman. Dinaric and West Alpine blend--a Celt in short. But I agree, he's not Nordic.

You are probably right,and obviously much more schooled in this sort of thing than I am .When I think of Nordik I think of Light blonde hair ,tall ,blue eyes ect.