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View Full Version : Would an Economic Downturn Help Us?



Thrymheim
Thursday, July 31st, 2008, 05:18 PM
Would a reduction in the amount of jobs and resources actually help the cause of Germanic preservation? i.e would the pressure on the job market cause our people to come together and exclude foreigners? If the downturn is particularly bad would we see street rioting again?

Flash Voyager
Thursday, July 31st, 2008, 05:33 PM
In theory when the economy is doing well families can afford to have more children in practice the higher the economic prosperity the lower the birth rate. In addition there would be less immigration and more unity.

Carl
Thursday, July 31st, 2008, 05:33 PM
Just how bad do you think it should be ?

I listened to a young (english) builder challenge Cameron yesterday on the subject of Polish workers undercutting their pay levels..... and causing them to be out of work. Cameron made it clear that we are in the EU and freedom of movement of labour is an essential part.

I also believe that the world is now so organized that very serious downturns will not be permitted! ;) -- for obvious reasons

Thrymheim
Thursday, July 31st, 2008, 05:39 PM
I suspect that if it is going to be really bad it will be out with their control to stop it.

Oswiu
Thursday, July 31st, 2008, 05:44 PM
In the most conservative estimate, they'll still be papering over the cracks for the next century or so, perhaps. I sometimes muse on the question, as we can all see that the structure as a whole is rotten, and yet we see how it stumbles on regardless. Perhaps a sharp shock is needed. But as the accumulated resources and inertia of the system are still considerable, we'd have to be talking about something really bad.

A usual run of the mill disaster like 1929 would just end up with those most able to survive triumphing. And who do you think that might be? People who are used to doing without, who have strong communities, people who aren't shackled by mad notions of fairness and equality. People with strong faith, even. Those less dependent on consumer rubbish and state handouts. A few Preservationists might survive too, though...

As for stopping immigrants coming in, the ones we've already taken in, and those the government doesn't even recognise as immigrants - their children and grandchildren, and probably even great great grandchildren by now - are already a huge problem. Some might leave, but most wouldn't. Their own ancestral lands have nothing to offer that ours hasn't. Living in the rubble of our collapse would be better than going back to half the places they came from. And if our different countries submitted to it at different speeds and in different ways, the foreigners could just move around between them, as we hear of those Somalis who thought England was better for them than the Netherlands.

Carl
Thursday, July 31st, 2008, 05:53 PM
I suspect that IF it is going to be really bad - (then) it will be out with their control to stop it.

you beg the question of course. If there is a collapse absolut then anything could happen!! up to & including riots and deportations.... especially as the enemy within will rise up against us anyway!! But , for this reason, The System will not allow it to happen ....not quite !! .... that is the question!:rolleyes:

BeornWulfWer
Thursday, July 31st, 2008, 06:08 PM
A recession can bring forth many wondrous events.

I shall await to see what happens.

SwordOfTheVistula
Thursday, August 7th, 2008, 01:04 PM
A mixed bag, I think:

'Housing collapse': Definitely good. Lower home costs will enable Germanic to start families sooner (most of us don't fancy starting a family in a cramped apartment or mom's basement). Also, construction provides a lot of employment to immigrants.

Declining value of currency: Mostly bad. Will make consumer goods more expensive, including appliances and such, and thus make it harder for young people to move out on their own and start a family. A bit of a bonus is it will create more domestic jobs, especially in manufacturing and some in local/regional tourism as well. Also in most of our countries this leads too:

Increasing energy costs: Very bad. Especially for Germanics outside of Europe, who mostly live in rural or suburban areas, and thus must commute and travel long distances, also shipment/energy costs will raise the price of consumer goods. Most Germanics also live in places that are cold for a sizable part of the year and must be heated. As with all cost increases, will delay family starting and lower the birthrate.

Job losses: Probably help more than hurt. Especially if it is low-wage jobs that immigrants have that get cut, since the areas people cut back in will be in entertainment costs (lots of low wage immigrant workers) and the declining housing market (lots of immigrant construction workers). This will of course hurt us too by making it harder for us to find jobs, but may bring political pressure against immigration.

Capital markets/credit crunch: Hurt, by making it harder to get home mortgages, car loans, student loans, finance move-outs with credit cards. Delayed families/lower birthrates.

Berrocscir
Monday, August 11th, 2008, 10:25 AM
There will be winners and losers. A housing crash (and that bubble's just been ridiculous) will leave many in negative equity. But a lot of people will bhe be able to buy somewhere decent. - A cheap holiday in other people's misery as Johnny Rotten sang ;)

Kriegersohn
Monday, August 11th, 2008, 11:39 AM
Would a reduction in the amount of jobs and resources actually help the cause of Germanic preservation? i.e would the pressure on the job market cause our people to come together and exclude foreigners? If the downturn is particularly bad would we see street rioting again?


It's a mixed bag. In the US there are several cities that have been dying slowly (Detriot & area, Michigan; Dayton, Ohio; Buffalo, New York; Charleston, West Virginia; etc, etc) due to the economic downturn...certain areas are also affected by aging Euro-descended populations as well. Immigration, legal or not, hasn't really declined remarkably in either the US or Europe despite stagnating economies. The birth rate among Germanic peoples remains low as immigrant and minority populations are exploding, causing a greater shift in the base culture of various areas here and abroad. I think some Germanic preservationists will come together and work harder for community while most will fall away in the morass. As for street rioting, from what I've seen here and in Europe, we're sitting on a simmering pot...whether it will actually go off or someone letting some of the steam out is another question entirely. The system will always try and right itself regardless of the outcome.

FFF
Ragnar

MockTurtle
Monday, August 11th, 2008, 12:58 PM
Would a reduction in the amount of jobs and resources actually help the cause of Germanic preservation?

I voted 'yes', because I think that it would probably cause people who are like-minded and genetically similar to seek each other out and cling to their common cultural model. In a very significant way, it is not unlike the descriptions that Hitler gave of the social situation in the former Austro-Hungarian Empire -- i.e. the disparate races were only held together by a common 'fist', and when difficulty struck, the deeper genetic similarities rose to the forefront and started to dominate the priorities of the imperial citizens.

Some of what SOTV has said is perhaps accurate, but of course what really matters is the interpretation of these new social conditions. IMO, the whole basis of our civilization has been thrown off here in North America, and until it gets corrected, nothing can really move forward. In times of crisis, people generally have a better sense of what is most valuable to them; they stop 'playing' and realize their natural priorities. I think that a severe economic downturn has great potential to shake the current liberal order and give us a genuine chance to repair our situation.

But, as I said before, what's really important is the sort of reactions that take place as a result of the new conditions that will develop. For instance, in the hard times, what if an extended community network of Nordish/Germanics sprang up that was deliberately pro-family? They could help each other economically and provide a strong cultural support base in order to preserve optimism and a belief in a bright future. Moreover, this might even have the eugenic effect of pulling out the most selfless and 'pro-social' elements who were willing to make the effort and sacrifice in the face of harsh circumstances. If someone successfully breeds in times of widespread comfort and ease it's not that great of an accomplishment; in times of relative hardship, it might just be a sign of positive selflessness...

SwordOfTheVistula
Monday, August 11th, 2008, 04:33 PM
There will be winners and losers. A housing crash (and that bubble's just been ridiculous) will leave many in negative equity. But a lot of people will bhe be able to buy somewhere decent. - A cheap holiday in other people's misery as Johnny Rotten sang ;)

The people who just bought a house to live in with a mortgage they could afford are fine. The big losers are speculators who bought houses hoping to 'flip' them for a big profit, and banks that loaned money to people with incomes inadequate to pay for the mortgage.

Cuchulain
Monday, August 11th, 2008, 05:27 PM
Would a reduction in the amount of jobs and resources actually help the cause of Germanic preservation? i.e would the pressure on the job market cause our people to come together and exclude foreigners? If the downturn is particularly bad would we see street rioting again?

It certainly worked out that way in post WW1 Germany.

Kriegersohn
Thursday, August 14th, 2008, 02:18 AM
It certainly worked out that way in post WW1 Germany.

? The situation was far different then *and* they didn't have to contend with millions of "guest workers" (or illegals as is the case here) as they would have to now. That and the fact that there were plenty of social networks that people could plug into that predate the war, National Socialism used, and later discarded, as many of them as possible.

An economic downturn would affect urban and rural communities differently. Rural communities are far more likely to help each other out than urban residents would be. Using your example and others, various social pathologies would spike (ie: crime, drug/alcohol abuse, pedophilia, mental disorders, homosexuality, etc), ethnic/racial lines would be drawn and begin tearing at the fabric of society. The level of problems would vary from community to community, rural or urban...how they deal with those problems are key to their existence.

We can talk about "what if's" and dream communities. Baseline, if the sh*t hits the fan, economically or otherwise, it will be your local networks that will provide the most assistance and give the coming together that is mentioned. Here, for me, it is a small community of Odinists and ethnic Germans that I could rely on. If I was in Berlin still, a fairly tight-knit network of family, friends and extended family. In fact the only "outside" assistance that I could expect would be from these two areas (the only exception being from my brother-in-law's family in the Netherlands, they would help if asked though I never had reason to). That's where preservation starts during good times or bad...at home and your community. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem helping people here on the Althing forum in real life, though at this point I wouldn't really expect the same in return. Just a few thoughts....

FFF
Ragnar

Cuchulain
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 01:30 AM
? The situation was far different then *and* they didn't have to contend with millions of "guest workers" (or illegals as is the case here) as they would have to now. That and the fact that there were plenty of social networks that people could plug into that predate the war, National Socialism used, and later discarded, as many of them as possible.

An economic downturn would affect urban and rural communities differently. Rural communities are far more likely to help each other out than urban residents would be. Using your example and others, various social pathologies would spike (ie: crime, drug/alcohol abuse, pedophilia, mental disorders, homosexuality, etc), ethnic/racial lines would be drawn and begin tearing at the fabric of society. The level of problems would vary from community to community, rural or urban...how they deal with those problems are key to their existence.

We can talk about "what if's" and dream communities. Baseline, if the sh*t hits the fan, economically or otherwise, it will be your local networks that will provide the most assistance and give the coming together that is mentioned. Here, for me, it is a small community of Odinists and ethnic Germans that I could rely on. If I was in Berlin still, a fairly tight-knit network of family, friends and extended family. In fact the only "outside" assistance that I could expect would be from these two areas (the only exception being from my brother-in-law's family in the Netherlands, they would help if asked though I never had reason to). That's where preservation starts during good times or bad...at home and your community. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem helping people here on the Althing forum in real life, though at this point I wouldn't really expect the same in return. Just a few thoughts....

FFF
Ragnar

My point being that people will resent guest workers and illegals more the more they have to compete with them for economic well being. Pretty sure that was one of the main reasons that Pre-ww2 Germans had contempt for the Jews. The situations were different, but clearly that concept clearly applies.

Why on earth would economic downturn promote homosexuality? I don't care how poor I get, I'm not blowing anyone. Same goes for the overwhelming majority of people that I know.

Kriegersohn
Friday, August 15th, 2008, 08:27 AM
My point being that people will resent guest workers and illegals more the more they have to compete with them for economic well being. Pretty sure that was one of the main reasons that Pre-ww2 Germans had contempt for the Jews. The situations were different, but clearly that concept clearly applies.

To an extent, I'd agree. Here we have illegals that hide in and are sheltered by a parent community that is third or fourth generation (occasionally older depending on the area)...most of the people that I've seen protesting ICE raids tend to be Hispanic with very little or no ties to Mexico. Current parent communities in Europe would be Turks in Germany (going on Fourth generation), Indians and Pakistans in the UK or even the Algerians and Moroccans in France. There is a stronger cultural and community base within these groups that the Jews in Germany didn't have.


Why on earth would economic downturn promote homosexuality? I don't care how poor I get, I'm not blowing anyone. Same goes for the overwhelming majority of people that I know.

It was a part of the "spike" in social pathologies (diseases) that I mentioned, the reasoning varies from study to study (from "it was always there", to situational "stress", drug abuse, loosening of societal norms, buggers taking advantage of a bad situation, etc). An economic downturn does tear at the social fabric of society, including its contraints, which allows for behaviour that wasn't tolerated before. The Weimar Republic was notorious for its decadence as well as its poverty, which included a rise in homosexual behaviour in the larger cities. You and I might not do that or the people we know, though that doesn't account for everyone by far.

veedub_tuner
Monday, August 25th, 2008, 01:14 AM
But take software industry for example, it is still doing well. Sure there is a downturn but some sectors are more insulated than others. And some are booming. A lot of businesses will continue to sponsor immigrant workers. Is the downturn helping? Yeah maybe it slows migration flows down but at the end of the day, it's all headed in the same direction.