View Full Version : Why Caste Systems Make Sense

Thursday, July 24th, 2008, 04:13 PM
Traditionally, the age-old Hindu caste system is a social hierarchy that determines what occupation a person should pursue. Broadly, the system has four major castes and thousands of sub-castes.

At the upper rung are Brahmins, the priestly class; followed by the Kshatriya or warrior caste; the Vaishya, the trading community; and the Shudras -- trades like carpenters, barbers and metalworkers. The Dalits are involved in menial professions that no one else wants. Hundreds of thousands of Indians are believed to fall in this category.

"While I was a child at 13 years old, I touched an untouchable. For that my grandmother forced me to swallow cow dung, cow urine and Ganges water to purify myself," Pathak said.

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/14/untouchable.models/index.html)

The model of the Indian caste system is based on four categories of people:

1) Leaders: can think and act independently. If they're intelligent and creative, they'll often create great things for a large number of people.

2) Half-leaders, Half-workers: can think and and independently if they're offered guidance and help from leaders. Screws things up from time to time if they're not managed by others, but are basically good, forward-moving people.

3) Workers: have got a hard time thinking for themselves and cannot act independently without someone telling them what to do and how to do it. They need strong leadership or else they dumb down and destroy things, not necessarily because they're "evil" or nasty, but rather because it lies in their nature.

4) Slaves: even worse than workers, in the sense that they need total mastery to be useful, and even at that point they screw things up. Slaves are harder to manage than workers, because while workers in general can be trusted with completing things if they repeat the process often enough, slaves are only useful for the very basic tasks of society. They can't program a computer on demand or write books. They can take out the garbage, clean the house, vote, collect food and build roads.

If you think about it for a moment, you'll realize that all of the people you've known in life, including yourself, end up in any of these groups here. Some people overlap and are about to either go from lower to higher group, and vice versa. Pathak was forced to eat cow dung to recognize that some people, even though we'd like it to be different, will never be able to manage that company or lead that group to success. It's easy to talk about equality, but unless you've visited the communities where slaves are a majority, or where workers have overthrown the leadership, don't open your mouth--you're just full of moral pretense.

Link (http://www.corrupt.org/news/why_caste_systems_make_sense)

Thursday, July 24th, 2008, 11:04 PM
The three kinds in the Aryan point of view
Shegor Rassate, Bulgaria

Part I

The three kinds in the society and man

Following the unwritten laws of their race, the Aryans have created advanced civilisations, based on the three-functional hiererchy – priesthood, warriors and work-people. Being true to their racial soul, they have ever accomplished their social order as continuence of the cosmical order, concluses the French profesor George Dumesil. The three social estates are coresponding to the three World kingdoms, also to the gods, who govern them. Above the all, first we must look for the reason of this trinital order - in the single man and in the vital needs of his tribe.

The three basic virtues

What needs a man suffiecently to live? On the first place he needs in means of existence – food, clothes, house, which he obtains with work. But the work is only the half of the real labour, the welfare must be protected as well. If a man wants to have right of free work, and life at all, he has to win it, being warrior. The life is one eternal war – for realisation of the Tribe and occupation of his vital room. The life is Will for power, concluses the great German philosopher Friedrich Nietshe. In the warriors deed has been realised the will for power, not only for the force domination of the Tribe, but allmost for preservation and improvement of its race. But the sacred symbol of the racial inheritance is the blood – it circulates inside the man and passes in the generation, it is immortal infact. In this reason in the ancient societies the value of man have been mesured with the nobelity of his blood. So the ancient men were subordinating their single lifes to the sacred laws of the blood.

However a man must not only warior to be, in the closed meaning of this notion. The laws of life are too complex, so not all the problems in this world could be solved with power only. The man must completely be lord of his destiny – not only in the room, but also in the time dimension, in the distant future. That is why he needs in knowledge about the Whole one, he must build himself as thorough person. Stadying the laws of nature, man gets to know its unvisible Creator, the Creator of himself. The highest sence of the single life is the knowledge of God. When he achieves unity with the Lord, the man relates his knowledge to the Divine beginning, so he can use it only for good, without disturbing the divine order. In the long run good is only this, which is good for the Tribe. The spiritual development is not end of itself, it is service of the use of Tribe, for realisation of the spirit of his race. Only noble blooded man can open his sensities to the Spiritual dimension, to achieve a vision for the secrets of Creature and the destiny of his tribe.

“After this, in the fourth week, the saints and the righteous men will have visions, for the generation will be brought peace and will be built a house for them; in the fifth week there will be built a mighty and impressive pallace for them.”(Book of Enoch 92:9)

Reasoning over this, we concluse, that in the man realizes the three-functional unity of his fundamental virtues – workers, military and spiritual, who set in motion the three circles of the human existence – exchanging, bloody and spiritual. One of the symbols of the spiritual cyrcle is the eight-legged horse of Odin – Sleipnir, according to the German mythology. With the use of Sleipnir Odin passes from the Heaven kingdom the Earthen and backwards to the Heaven.

.............. http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/kinds.html


Gorm the Old
Friday, July 25th, 2008, 12:00 AM
Rassate's account is confusing in that it seems to state that the same individual is obliged to be worker, householder, and warrior. This was never the Aryan concept. The Laws of Manu clearly define four castes, each with its own rights, obligations, and responsibilities.

The Bhagavad Gita emphasizes that it is wrong for one to perform the duty of another. Not only is he obliged to perform the duties of his own caste, but he is expressly forbidden to undertake to perform the duties which do not pertain to his caste.

This is the basis for the criticism of the caste system based on the Laws of Manu as being too rigid and not permitting "upward mobility".

The Bulgarian version of the 3 kinds in society and man seems to confuse and mingle the duties and responsibilities of the different castes. Such a view is contrary to the Laws of Manu and highly heterodox.

The model of the Hindu caste system cited by Fallen Angel does not correlate with that prescribed by the Laws of Manu. The first category should be the Brahmins who provide the spiritual and moral authority for the policies of the Kshatriyas who are both warriors and administrators.

The Vaisyas are not "half leaders" and "half-workers" They are the mercantile class. They are not concerned with either priestly functions or military/administrative matters. In short, they are business men.

The Sudras include skilled workmen and artisans. When they have attained mastership of their craft, they can and do work independently and do NOT require "strong leadership"

The Dalits are outside of the caste system. That is why they are "untouchable." In the normal course of affairs, there should be no reason to touch them. Inasmuch as they are denied religious instruction, they are considered ritually unclean.

Especially for the Aryan-dominated society of India about 4000 years ago, the Laws of Manu are eminently logical. They provided a framework for a stable society. It has been criticised for being so stable as to be stagnant. The rigidity of the caste system as envisioned by Manu did, indeed preclude "upward mobility", but, in this respect, it was no worse than the feudal system of Medięval Europe.

Unfortunately, the self-sufficient stability of the caste system allowed it to outlive its own usefulness and the society for which it was designed.

Friday, July 25th, 2008, 03:16 AM
I think dude was trying to get at a mind, body, soul connection thing emphasizing the development of the individual ( and groups of them ) with it's marcocosm. And I figure there is no such thing as all is psychological.


Friday, July 25th, 2008, 12:33 PM
Like GtO stated, this is an extremely gross and oversimplified portrayal of the Caste system. Rather culturally- & epoch-biased I might say.
Why am I not surprised that the source is corrupt.org! :p

The best source to read about the Caste System is the Bhagavat Gita, indeed. The different castes in the Aryan tradition are all significant because they serve a functional role in society. Without the sudras, for example, the system would fall apart. They are not 'slaves'. Nor are the brahmins 'leaders' :rolleyes:. In fact, the 'leaders' of the state come from the Ksatriya caste, as the brahmins serve a purely spiritual role.

The Caste system is very different, and, should not be viewed under the individualistic, competitive model of contemporary western societies.

If you think about it for a moment, you'll realize that all of the people you've known in life, including yourself, end up in any of these groups here. Some people overlap and are about to either go from lower to higher group, and vice versa.

In the traditional Caste system, you don't 'end up' or go from lower to higher. You are being born in a Caste and stuck there for the rest of your life.

Thursday, August 7th, 2008, 05:04 PM
We do not need to look to Hindus or Aryans for caste systems. The ancient Germanics had a caste system too.

Here is more about it:

# Thrall, Karl, and Jarl:
Germanic society was based on the "stairs" principle; some people stood on a higher step than others.
This is very striking considering the equality, tolerance, and liberal conceptions of the ancient Germans, we must however keep in mind that slavery was common in that time and that almost every people knew that system.
According to the Eddan poem Rigsžula the god Heimdall divided the Germanic society into three groups; Thralls (Slaves), Karls (Average persons), and Jarls (Nobles):

# the Jarls were the nobles, sometimes great warriors, skalds, and goši's were also considered Jarls.
A Jarl had more rights than the average person and they were often the ones who were elected as leaders.
# the Karls were the average people, the farmers, the warriors, the fishermen, etc. they had voting rights and a normal amount of freedom that can almost be compared to that of many modern European societies.
# the Thralls were the slaves; most of them were foreign peoples who were captured during wars but Tacitus also mentions people becoming someones slave voluntarily to pay off their debts with a person.
Thralls were considered the property of their master, a crime committed to the Thrall was a crime committed to the master's property, the Thralls had no voting rights in the žing (folk assembly) and had to do what their master asked of them.
The Thralls did have some rights though, he was the property of the master but he was also considered a human being, some masters eventually freed their slaves after some years of service, and even became friends with the Thrall.

A good example can be found in the Gylfaginning, a story from the Prose Edda in which the god Thor visited a farmer and was so grateful for his hospitality that he slaughtered his two billy-goats Tanngnost and Tanngrisnir and offered the meat to the farmer and his children, Thor asked the farmer not to break the bones because he was going to bring his billy-goats back to life the day after.
However, the farmers' son Thialfi broke one of the bones to suck the marrow out of it and when Thor restored life to his goats the next day using his magical hammer Mjöllnir he noticed that one of the goats was cripple.
Thor became very angry and he threatened to destroy the farm, he demanded retribution for his goat and the farmer then offered his son (Thialfi) and daughter (Roskva) as servants to Thor.
Thialfi and Roskva became Thors' most loyal servants and they are sometimes mentioned in the sagas like for instance in the story about the running match against the Frost Giants, in those texts Thor treats his servants well.

Most people who get confronted with the term "slavery" immediately think of the massive slave trade in the period between 1600AD and 1700AD and the inhumane treatment of Negroe slaves who were abducted from their villages and transported to the New World, (in which my people the Dutch unfortunately also played a big role) however; in Germanic society a slave lived in his master's house and was treated like a family member, they did have less rights but they were treated fairly and their situation cannot be compared to the more "modern" types of slavery.
Slavery was so common back then that in 950AD over 30% of the population of Iceland consisted of slaves, mainly from Scotland and Ireland.
The slaves in Iceland also had to change their name into an Icelandic one, a practice that has continued to this day; modern Iceland still has a law that obliges people who move there to choose an Icelandic name.

The mythological explanation of the caste system can be found in the Rigsžula, a book from the Edda in which the god Heimdallr travels to Midgard (the human world) disguised as a travelling man named Rigr ("Ruler"), after a long day of travelling Rigr knocks on the door of Įi and Edda (great grandfather and great grandmother) and asks if he can spend the night there.
He is invited in and he gets a simple meal, at night he may sleep between the two old people in their bed.
The next morning great grandmother gives birth to an ugly child with black hair and a bended back, but when he grew up he became a strong man who worked hard.
He was called Thrall (Slave) and he married Thķr (Female Slave), together they begot 12 sons and 9 daughters.
Rigr then travels on to the next house; he is invited in by Afi and Amma (grandfather and grandmother) and he enjoys a good meal and gets his own bed.
The next morning grandmother gives birth to a child, it was healthy and when he grew up he became a hard worker at the farm.
He was called Karl (Guy) and he married Snoer (Daughter-in-law), they got 12 sons and 10 daughters.
Rigr then leaves and goes to the next house, he is invited in by Fašir and Mošir, (father and mother), he gets a terrific meal and a warm bed.
The next morning Mošir gives birth to a child, it was healthy and blonde, and when he grew up he turned out to be a good hunter and fighter and he won every battle, Rigr accepted him as his son and learned him the secrets of the runes.
He was called Jarl (Earl or Nobleman) and he married a blonde and intelligent woman named Erna (Resolute), they got 12 sons.
The youngest son of Jarl was Konr who married a woman named Dana, together they got a child that they named Danur, and they became rich and powerful.
Their followers were called Danen (Danes) and from them the Danish people was believed to originate, according to the legends the Danish royal family descended from Skjöld, who was a son of Odin, therefor the royal family was also called "Skjöldungen".

There are many historians who believe that the caste system has been added later by Medieval kings and that the Germanic culture originally did not knew such a system.


Crabby Badger
Thursday, September 18th, 2008, 03:59 AM
I am not a fan of the caste systems. Genetic studies of Indians indicate that the upper caste men are not of the same ethnic backgrounds as the lower caste men. This mixed with some historical evidence indicates that the caste system may have been put in place by invaders who married into the population and put in place a rigid caste system to protect their lineages.

On a more personal note, I tend to feel that if you cannot live as a free person with all the rights and responsibilities then really what is the point. Also I think US history has more than shown that slavery and caste systems enslave the whole society in destructive practices that are counter to evolution in useful directions. Who is the slave and who is the master?

Frankly I also think it makes a strong and independant people weak and lazy. Any person ought to be prepared to clean up their own excrement, cook their own food, plow their own fields, herd their own cattle, make their own widgets and so forth. Castes and slavery breek weakness.

Thursday, September 18th, 2008, 03:01 PM
Yes, I think that we are better employing our own people rather than creating elaborate classist structures which incorporate racial foreigners (who end up marrying in/up because they have big fullsome tits and can dance and sing etc. like in all those Bollywood films)

Classism is antithetical to both anarchism and nationalism and I try not to support it.

Locking people into the professions which their parents held is not progressive, because amazing freak talents can erupt from nowhere!

Cultural integrity is good, but why should someone follow their parents just because society says so?