The Pennsylvania Dutch

[Götterschicksal]

How did this misnomer come about? There are several theories:

1. In the 15th and 16th centuries, the English referred to all people
of germanic heritage as Dutch or Dutchmen regardless of whether they came
from the Netherlands or from lands now known as Germany. If differentiated,
however, they were referred to by the English as the Low Dutch (Low German)
for the Netherlanders and the High Dutch (High German) for the Germans and
German speaking Swiss, referring to the elevation of their native lands.
However, after the United Provinces (the Netherlands) became an independent
state, and competition and even wars developed between England and the
Netherlands, the English language terms for these two people began to diverge
such that by the 17th century the Netherlanders were referred to as the Dutch
and the people from areas now in Germany where referred to as Germans. Thus,
some theorize that the phrase Pennsylvania Dutch is a linguistic carry over
from the earlier, broader usage of the word Dutch.

2. The German word for German is "Deutsch". Thus, if a person described
themselves as a Pennsylvania "Deutschman", he meant Pennsylvania German.
Thus, recent generations of English speaking people in the United States,
corrupted the pronunciation and spelling to Pennsylvania "Dutchman".

3. The Dutch predominantly settled in New Amsterdam (now New York). The
Germans predominantly settled in southeastern Pennsylvania, in the inland
counties of Northampton, Berks, Lancaster, Lehigh, Montgomery, Bucks, and
others. Some very early Palatine German refugees were settled in New York
by the British. However, most of these eventually migrated overland to
Pennsylvania where William Penn offered religious freedom and better
treatment. The languages sound similar to the untrained ear. Because of
similarities in the sound of the language, some people theorize that the
Pennsylvania Germans were called Pennsylvania Dutch by the English to
differentiate them geographically from the similar sounding New York Dutch.

4. Most of the German immigrants sailed to Pennsylvania from Dutch ports,
such as Rotterdam and Amsterdam in Holland, after coming down the Rhine
River from Germany. Thus, English speaking people may have confused them
as being Dutch because the ship lists reported they embarked for the new
world from Dutch ports. Thus, some people may have incorrectly thought
these Palatine Germans and other German speaking people were Dutch.

5. Dutch Reformed congregations in New York and Holland provided
financial and spiritual assistance to the early German Reformed
congregations in Pennsylvania due to their shared spiritual beliefs. Dutch
ministers, who were also fluent in German, preached to the early PA German
settlers in order to insure the Reformed faith was nurtured and grew in
the early settlements until such time as the German Reformed Church was
solidly established. With the Dutch church heavily involved with the early
settlers, this could have further confused the true heritage of these
early German speaking settlers as viewed by the English speaking settlers.



"Pennsylvania Dutch "
Unsah Faddah im Himmel,
dei nohma loss heilich sei.
Dei Reich loss kumma.
Dei villa loss gedu sei,
uf di eaht vi im Himmel.
Unsah tayklich broht gebb uns heit.
Un fagebb unsah shulda,
vi miah dee fagevva vo uns shuldich sinn.
Un fiah uns naett in di fasuchung,
avvah hald uns fu'm eevila.
Fa dei is es Reich, di graft, un di hallichkeit in ayvichkeit. Amen.

[+Suomut+]

This is a topic near and dear to my heart, since I am Pennsylvania "Dutch/Deutsch" down my paternal line.

All the points above discuss this topic very well.

The simple fact of the matter is: there are VERY FEW folks in North America of Nederlander descent. "New Amsterdam/New York" really was the hub of Nederlander-Americanism. Beyond that colony, there were FEW others in the orginal American colonies of Nederlander heritage. There are VERY FEW folks here in the U. S. today that can claim Nederlander colonial heritage.

One must understand that most of the immigrants to the original 13 British colonies on the eastern coast of what is now called the U. S. were poor, illiterate, and uneducated. This was true of ALL ethnic groups that came here. So, there were illiterate Englishmen (of course) in the colonies dealing with equally illiterate European continentals from destinations including the "German"-speaking areas. These were the days BEFORE such "socialistic" concepts of "public-education," etc. So, back in those days here there were fairly ignorant English-speakers dealing on an everyday basis with fairly ignorant "German"-speakers...so, what came out of it in Pennsylvania?!?! The label of the: "Pennsylvania Dutch." :-)

Anyone here in the U.S. who is of "PA Dutch" heritage (like me) KNOWS!!! that the label REALLY means: "Pennsylvania DEUTSCH!" lol ;-) So, for those of us who KNOW better! (typically "German-Americans") we know what it means, but for those who are NOT "German-American" it is until this day a TRICKY thing that not everyone on this side of the ocean understands...for MANY it still means NEDERLANDER/"Dutch" and NOT GERMAN/DEUTSCH!

Btw, from what I know, MOST "PA DEUTSCH" folks are of HOCHDEUTSCH (as are mine) heritage and this is because most "PA Deut." are Protestant (esp. Lutheran)-"German" who were in the 1600-1700s driven from the predominantly Catholic-German areas.

I do find it interesting, as a native English-speaker that "Dutch" has come to mean in modern English "Nederlander" and "German" has come to me "Deutsch." In my mind "Dutch" is merely an English corruption of the TRUE "Deutsch," so as far as I'm concerned "Dutch"="Deutsch"="GERMAN." And the "Nederlanders" are IN-BETWEEN being "English"+"Deutsch!" LOL

As for this issue of whether or not the ancient "Germanni" were "Germanic" or "Celtic" is beyond the scope of this post!!!! LOL :-))) Nevertheless, the English folk as some point LONG AGO decided to apply this term to the "Deutsch!" LOL

Oh, btw, additionally, terms such as "Dutch"; "Deutsch"; et al. are all ultimately derived from "THIUDA!" which is merely and old (ancient) Gothic term meaning "FOLK!" or to be more Latin-like "people!" So, e.g., such modern deutsch phrasologies such as "das deutsche Volk" ("the folk folk") are redundancies! ;-)

GOD-BLESS my kinfolk in the "PA-DEUTSCH"!!!!!! Any of you that might happen to come across this post!!!! LOL :-OOOO

[Loki]

Welcome to Skadi Forum, Suomut2_13! ;)

Thanks for the interesting picures you posted on the Anglo-Saxon thread. This issue about the Pennsylvania "Dutch" is also a must read!

Regards,

Loki

:guinness

[Nordgau]

I do find it interesting, as a native English-speaker that "Dutch" has come to mean in modern English "Nederlander" and "German" has come to me "Deutsch." In my mind "Dutch" is merely an English corruption of the TRUE "Deutsch," so as far as I'm concerned "Dutch"="Deutsch"="GERMAN." And the "Nederlanders" are IN-BETWEEN being "English"+"Deutsch!" LOL


When the Lower-German tribe of the Netherlanders slightly began to seperate out of the German Volk in the early modern times in political, cultural, national-mental and in language (with the Lower-German dialect of Netherlandish character becoming an own high language) respects, they got the word "deutsch" (dutch) "reserved" for them in the English language, while for the Volk in Deutschland (now without the Netherlands), the antique "Germans" were digged out again.

Interesting is that now, with the modern Volk in Deutschland called "Germans", the antique Germans (in German: Germanen) in English are often called "Teutons" - a very incorrect term that should be avoided, because the Teutons (in German: Teutonen) in a the true, narrow sense were only one Germanic tribe that went to the South in the second century B. C. and then was defeated and mostly exterminated by the Romans. One should drop the word "Teutons" for the Germanics as a whole and only use "Germanics" - it's only a cause for misunderstandings (for example in German books translated from English one often reads stuff like that Himmler and the SS worshipped to the Teutonen or that the Nazis loved the teutonische Rasse. - At best in the Third Reich one spoke of Germanen and a germanische Rasse).

My question: Was the word "German" already used in English for the modern Germans, e g. in the Medieval Age (if there are non-Latin texts where the Germans are mentioned) or also in the very early modern times, before the the Netherlands seperated and "took with them" the word "Dutch"?

[Allenson]

The simple fact of the matter is: there are VERY FEW folks in North America of Nederlander descent. "New Amsterdam/New York" really was the hub of Nederlander-Americanism. Beyond that colony, there were FEW others in the orginal American colonies of Nederlander heritage. There are VERY FEW folks here in the U. S. today that can claim Nederlander colonial heritage.



I am one of those few. I am largely of 'New Netherlands' Dutch ancestry (50% or so...some from both maternal and paternal sides). My family has lived in the hills above the Hudson for over 300 years now. Here's a map showing the distribution of Dutch descended folk in the US


http://www.mnplan.state.mn.us/maps/ancestry/us/dutch.gif

[+Suomut+]

I am one of those few. I am largely of 'New Netherlands' Dutch ancestry (50% or so...some from both maternal and paternal sides). My family has lived in the hills above the Hudson for over 300 years now. Here's a map showing the distribution of Dutch descended folk in the US


http://www.mnplan.state.mn.us/maps/ancestry/us/dutch.gif

Hey Dalonord,

I have to say I'm always astonished to find Nederlander-Americans! :-O I met a gal a few weeks back that's paternally Nederlander from the New Amsterdam Colony. U "Dutch" folks are unique here and you all KNOW IT TOO!!!! LOL ;-))) Good spirit, I like it! =)

As for the URL/map you provide, I took conspicuous notice of certain counties in the South that I am WELL!!!!!!!!! familiar with that have virtually no Nederlander populations but are overwhelmingly "German" i.e. non-Nederlander. So, it appears obvious to me that this map is inaccurate to a certain extent with a certain % of reportees who are really "German" reporting themselves (perhaps out of ignorance) as "Dutch/Nederlander." But, it's based on the census and we have to go by what the citizens report don't we?--regardless, of how genuine and true the reports are. :(

When the Lower-German tribe of the Netherlanders slightly began to seperate out of the German Volk in the early modern times in political, cultural, national-mental and in language (with the Lower-German dialect of Netherlandish character becoming an own high language) respects, they got the word "deutsch" (dutch) "reserved" for them in the English language, while for the Volk in Deutschland (now without the Netherlands), the antique "Germans" were digged out again.

I personally wouldn't call Netherlanders a "tribe," since I'm inclined to reserve this for the ancients, but I know what you mean. In my mind, modern Netherlanders/Nederlanders are an "ethnicity" or a "genetic nation."

Interesting is that now, with the modern Volk in Deutschland called "Germans", the antique Germans (in German: Germanen) in English are often called "Teutons" - a very incorrect term that should be avoided, because the Teutons (in German: Teutonen) in a the true, narrow sense were only one Germanic tribe that went to the South in the second century B. C. and then was defeated and mostly exterminated by the Romans. One should drop the word "Teutons" for the Germanics as a whole and only use "Germanics" - it's only a cause for misunderstandings (for example in German books translated from English one often reads stuff like that Himmler and the SS worshipped to the Teutonen or that the Nazis loved the teutonische Rasse. - At best in the Third Reich one spoke of Germanen and a germanische Rasse).

Actually, it seems to me the use of the term "German(-ic)" was probably first instigated by the English intellegensia at some point in the late-middle ages. Also, the term "Teuton(-ic)" probably has a similar history in the English tongue. Today, in English both terms are used to refer to "deutschers" the former FAR MORE than the latter.

Originally, both the Germanni and the Teutonni were singular, individual tribes. As for the Germanni, I've never been able to find much information on this obsure tribe. They were either "Germanic" or "Celtic" (to use our modern understandings of these terms). A prominent member of this site stated one time via another forum that that term "Germanni" had some kind of meaning (I'm sorry I forgot what it was) in the ancient Celtic/Gaelic tongues, but I never bought that idea much (I wanted to see the PROOF for it!) since I've long thought that given the tribe's name which includes the "-manni" suffix which is a nearly SURE sign for me this tribe was "Germanic" since several of the old folk tribes liked to name themselves after the "Germanic" demigod "Mannus." I mean NO BODY debates as to whether or not the ALEMANNI!!!! (like those of us with Swiss and Swabian blood) were "Germanic!" Of course they were as the "GERMANNI" in all probablity. The problem with the Germanni is that to my knowledge no one knows where they ended up in history. They are an enigma. Now to the Teutonni...-v

From my readings of Plutarch, it's not like ALL the Teutonni, Cimbri, and Ambrones left the ancient "Cimbric" Peninsula (Denmark)! Let's leave a little room for the possiblity that SOME/MANY/MOST stayed behind. But who knows. Think for a moment, though, did ALL! the "Angles" leave Angeln for the British Isles? No. Did ALL! the Goths leave "Gotland" for the mainland to the south? No. Etc., etc. So, in my mind there is no problem for ANYONE of "Germanic" heritage calling themselves "Teuton" a "Cimbrian" or an "Ambrone"...esp. those who have heritage from Denmark south into Northern Italy since these were the essential tracings of these tribes.

As for the N. S. problems in modern Deutschland in regard to these terminologies you understand them better than I do. I can't comment.

My question: Was the word "German" already used in English for the modern Germans, e g. in the Medieval Age (if there are non-Latin texts where the Germans are mentioned) or also in the very early modern times, before the the Netherlands seperated and "took with them" the word "Dutch"?

Well, I did a little digging in my Anglo-Saxon dictionary along these lines. In A.S./Old English/early Medieval times there was no such a word as "German" in use. But it makes sense doesn't it that this word would not be in A.S. since there was no tribe anywhere in Europe at the time of "England's" early beginnings with the name "German(-ni)." So, as I mention above, it was probably in the latter middle-ages that the English learned classes (being knowledgable of the Classical works) brought the term "German" into being in reference to "deutschers."

As for the terms: "Dutch"/"deutsch"/"dütsch"/ etc. the cognate to these in A.S. was ðeod, meaning literally "folk/Volk." An earlier cognate to this word was the Gothic ðiuda meaning precisely the same thing "folk/Volk." There never was a "Germanic" tribe in ancient times called the ðiuda/ðeod/dütsch/deutsch/Dutch/etc. This was (and in my mind still is) a rather generic term for folk/Volk/nation/people/etc. So, IMO, anyone of "Germanic" heritage has the right to use this term, even though it would be incredibly confusing for most "normal" persons walking the streets today. Being "deutsch" is really a nearly all-encompassing term for all "Germanic" folks whether being Lombard, Burgundian, Alleman, Swabian, Bavarian, Thuringian, Saxon, Frank, Frisian, Angle, Jute, Dane, Norse, Swedish, etc. Each of these folks have their own individual heritages and unique names, but they are all together "One Folk(Folc)/Ein Volk" OR "One ðiuda/ðeod/dütsch/deutsch/Dutch/etc." in a SUPER-ethnic sense.

Here are some other ðiuda/folk cognates in A.S.:
ðeod=folk
ðeodcwen=folk-queen
ðeodcyning=folk-king
ðeode=speech/language/nation
ðeodeorðe=folk-earth
ðeodhere=folk-army/Volksheer
ðeodisc=speech/language
ðeodland=folk-land/district/gau
ðeodlic=folk-like/national
ðeodscipe=folk/nation/people
ðeodstefn=folk/nation

As for the modern English-speaking world referring to the modern "German"-speaking world as "Germans," I think this should be ended. The better term in English for the modern community of "German"-speakers/ethnics should be: "the Deutschers" since since some 6 or more TRIBAL groups are being refered to. And perhaps the "Dutch" can then become in English parlance: "the Hollanders!" lol ;-)))

[Nordgau]

I personally wouldn't call Netherlanders a "tribe," since I'm inclined to reserve this for the ancients, but I know what you mean. In my mind, modern Netherlanders/Nederlanders are an "ethnicity" or a "genetic nation."


Yeah, you're right. In German terminology of Volkskunde, it's usual to call the even today Bavarians, Franconians, Saxonies etc. the different German Stämme. Literally that would be "tribes", but such a directly translation is junk, cause "tribe" isn't used in English for such modern ethnic populations or sub-populations.

As for the modern English-speaking world referring to the modern "German"-speaking world as "Germans," I think this should be ended. The better term in English for the modern community of "German"-speakers/ethnics should be: "the Deutschers" since since some 6 or more TRIBAL groups are being refered to. And perhaps the "Dutch" can then become in English parlance: "the Hollanders!" lol ;-)))

As theoritical thought quite interesting, though I don't think of the practical possibility of a name changing of a whole country or people. That only really works with non-European people such as Persians/Iranians, Ceylon/Sri Lanka, Kongo/Zaire: these names aren't so common and such an important and daily thing for the English-speaking people. But the Germans as known and great and important central folk of Europe are.

Wouldn't "Deutschers" be from its spelling to far for a common English use? How about the "Deutchers" and "Deutchland" as compromise ("eu" spoken as "oi" still isn't real English). And when the "Dutch" are forced to be "Hollanders" again, we can inherit that word again. "Dutchland" as my favourite is already free today, lol.

[Götterschicksal]

Also, the term "Teuton(-ic)" probably has a similar history in the English tongue

I posted on this before (in german) - http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3621 - bottom of page.

[+Suomut+]

For any and all that might be interested I've posted a reply to this @ http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=37811

I posted on this before (in german) - http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3621 - bottom of page.

As theoritical thought quite interesting, though I don't think of the practical possibility of a name changing of a whole country or people. That only really works with non-European people such as Persians/Iranians, Ceylon/Sri Lanka, Kongo/Zaire: these names aren't so common and such an important and daily thing for the English-speaking people. But the Germans as known and great and important central folk of Europe are.

I agree. What I suggest is practically impossible, but I can DREAM can't I!??! LOL ;-) What's so bad about it is such a language change would be GOOD for the English folk (for the sake of NOT being ignorant)! But there are a lot of things that would be good for English folks but most don't care. I suppose the same can be said of most deutschers too these days, sadly.

Wouldn't "Deutschers" be from its spelling to far for a common English use? How about the "Deutchers" and "Deutchland" as compromise ("eu" spoken as "oi" still isn't real English). And when the "Dutch" are forced to be "Hollanders" again, we can inherit that word again. "Dutchland" as my favourite is already free today, lol.

No, such a language change would be easy for Englishmen to do, no problem. Yeah, changing the pronunciation would be unnecessary, the SENSIBLE meaning would be there instead of troublesome wordage. Maybe if the English started calling the "Germans"-->"Deutschers" then the "Dutchmen/Hollanders/Nederlanders" might get MAD! and want the name BACK!!! LOL (I'm not holding my breath, of course ;-) IMO, they should go by FRISIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is IMO, the BEST and most HONORABLE name for any, in English, "Dutchman" to go by. Frisian blood is the ONE side of the heritage of "Dutchmen" that said men have the most to be proud about. Absolutely, no "Dutchman" could ever be criticised for calling himself a Frisian first regardless of whether he was born or raised in Frisland. ;-)

[Fox]

Don't know how many people here know about the unfortunate situation of Pennsylvania Germans but check this site out:

http://www.deitscherei.com/aasicht.htm

Thoughts and opinions welcome

[Obacht]

Thank you for your post.

We have moved Deitscherei.com to Deitscherei.org and are currently underway at moving information along in the communities faster than ever.

Deitscherei.org is committed to the advancement of the Pennsylvania German culture (language, various modes of living, etc.). Preservation is not enough.

Speakers of Pennsylvania German are encouraged to find ways to help expand the use of the language throughout the Deitscherei.

Other talents need to be channeled into the cause as well. We need people who have organizational skills, recording talents, etc. to give the language a modern outlet for use that will interest the non-plain youth in their heritage.

As time goes on and our site gathers more steam, we will surely be carrying more information about opportunities for people to put their talents to use.

Thank you very much.

obacht@deitscherei.com

[Peeps]

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=5811

Heathen Traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch Still Strong

Folk magic, runic hex-signs, dialect all strengthen sense of identity, common purpose

The word “Dutch” refers to “Deutsch” (German), not the Netherlands, and the Pennsylvania Dutch originate in southwestern Germany. Their language, Pennsylvania Dutch (Pennsilfaani-Deitsch) is still spoken by up to a quarter million people, mainly in and around Lancaster County.

While the folk magic of the Pennsylvania Dutch is today seen mainly as a set of cultural folk customs, scholars have been able to trace much of the content to pre-Christian times. Pennsylvania folk magic is a syncretic Christo-pagan belief system expressed through the beautiful hex-signs seen on barns and in homes, and as a series of folksy aphorisms, folk tales and superstitions passed down orally from generation to generation. It is also syncretic in the sense that its practitioners do not consider it to be a religion, and are usually church-going Christians. But the men and women who practice the wisdom would have been considered witches at one point in European and American history.

The “bible” of the Pennsylvania Dutch folk magic system is the book Pow-Wows, a compilation of folk customs (http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/pow/index.htm) compiled by John George Hoffman in 1820. Despite the name, this folk magic has nothing to do with American Indian religion. The symbolism, formulae and history of the customs are uniquely Germanic, and distinct from the Celtic-derived folk magic of much of the South.

One of the best-known products of the Pennsylvania folk magic system are the hex-signs (http://www.hexsigns.com/), roundels brightly painted to ward against evil and bring good fortune. (Although many people associate the hex-signs with the better-known Amish and Mennonites, these “plain people” are generally puritanical and eschew folk magic.) Researchers have shown that the hex signs conceal protective runic charms and display colors and mythical shapes and fauna directly descended from Germanic heathenism. Recently there has been a revived interest (http://northernway.org/school/onw/folk/folkstudyhall.html) from Whites outside of the Pennsylvania Dutch community proper to study and practice this Germanic form of White American folk magic and to appreciate a living aspect of our collective folk soul.

Summary of Hexology (from the work of Edred Thorburnrson):

· The Pennsylvania Dutch farmers created their own American brand of magic with their hex signs.
· The use of graphic signs and incantation is similar to rune magic.
· The incantations or spells are taken from grimoires or magic manuals.
· A written blessing is called a "Himmelsbrief".
· The hex sign is circular and divided into three zones: core self, inner world, outer world.
· Geometrical shapes have different meanings: e.g. threefold pattern = spirituality.
· Symbols used in hex signs include earth star (good things, harmony), tulip (faith, loyalty), heart, golden finch (good luck), eagle (strength and courage), oak leaf (masculinity), acorns (male sexuality), rain drops (nourishment), pomegranates (fertility), lightning bolt (breaking loose), grapes (female fertility), clover (sweetness).
· Colors all have meanings: white = purity, innocence, red = love, vitality, freedom; black = death, lust; blue = spiritual strength; violet = dignity, power; yellow = divine love.

[NordicPower]

Thanks for this article, I am a descendant from the Pennsylvania Dutch, and it's always interesting to learn a little bit more about your ancestors. :)

I take it you also descend from them?

[Peeps]

I take it you also descend from them?

No, I just thought it was interesting how certain pagan practices survive Christianity. Also, some of my classmates in elementary school were Amish (http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml), so I try to keep track of issues (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/20/123855.shtml) related to those people.

[Georgia]

We live in an area where there is a large Mennonite community. We are friends with most of them, all of the ones we know. Not all of them are natives of Georgia, many of them have moved down here from the Midwest. In the past every time we get together, whether we go riding together, having dinner together or just visiting they would tell me that they speak Dutch and are of Dutch descent. I ask them to speak to me and they do NOT speak Dutch but clearly German, Plattdeutsch. The origin of this "Dutch thing" has to do that when these people first immigrated to America, their English-speaking neighbors were not able to pronounce the word "Deutsch" correctly but pronounced it as "Dutch." Ask them about their ancestry and they will tell you their ancestors came from the Schweiz or around the Black Forrest. So we always have a lot to talk about:thumbup .
In Deutsch.

Georgia:)

[Imperator X]

Jawohl,This is particularly annoying because I am most likely a descendent [1/8th only, sadly] of these people myself. Most likely Alamannic from Baden-Wuerttemburg. The colors of the old Suddeutschfahne were Black and Gold, the colours of the Pittsburgh Steelers football team. BTW I just got back from Berlin after a month, my German has improved considerably, but that was mostly from the Intensive German program in Taos NM, there's too much English and too many frogs in Berlin. Hopefully I'll get to go to a more suburban German place in the future.

[Æmeric]

The simple fact of the matter is: there are VERY FEW folks in North America of Nederlander descent. "New Amsterdam/New York" really was the hub of Nederlander-Americanism. Beyond that colony, there were FEW others in the orginal American colonies of Nederlander heritage. There are VERY FEW folks here in the U. S. today that can claim Nederlander colonial heritage.


Actually there are probably tens of millions of Americans who are of colonial Dutch (Netherlands) descent. They were part of the founding population of America & very large families were the norm till about the Civil War era. However in most cases it's probably small proportion compared to the number of British & German ancestors.

[darthantares]

The subject of colonial dutch ancestry is of great interest to me. My surname begins with Van*****. However whenever people would ask us about our ancestry my father would sidestep the question of our surname and start talking about collateral lines. Some cousins claimed that the name came from Alsace-Lorraine but I believe that is a bunch of crap after conducting my own research. When I pressed her she said that the name was originally spelled with a 'von' which I consider to be a ridiculous claim consider how rare anyone with that prefix for a surname was in the early colonies. My earliest known ancestor was born in New Jersey in 1763 and then moved to Pennsylvania with his family. When the family moved to PA they associated mainly with the Scotch-Irish presbyterian community with the exception with the many marriages with one family that came from nj earlier who was indeed ancient knickerbocker dutch lineage. However I feel like an idiot with a surname that makes no sense. I actually talked to one distant bearer of my surname who moved to Britain with her English husband who vacation a lot in Holland and said that noone recognizes it.

That said I have some true Pennsylvania Deutsch lines and they don't have anything like Van in front of the name.

[ladybright]

I was thinking of fastnachts when I bought paczkis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%85czki) for me and my daughter. They are 'the' traditional Shrove Tuesday treat in Michigan weither or not you are polish.

[Ulf]

Here's a few I posted about the Deitsch and Amish.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=100784

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=100785

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=100786

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=100787

[Kriemhild]

Thanks to all the previous posters for this great information! :thumbup I myself have strong Pennsylvania "Deutsch" ties, with family originally from the Rhineland-Palatinate on my maternal side.

[Imperator X]

I am a Pittsburgh Steelers fan, and all Pittsburgh sports teams' colors are Black and Gold. The Flag of the old Austrian Empire was colored Black and Gold. My great grandmother was from southern Germany, my fathers' side settled in Pittsburgh, I wonder if the Black and Gold is due to southern German immigrants?

http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/1/1c/Habsburg_Flag.png http://www1.whdh.com/images/news_articles/389x205/061106_Pittsburgh_Steelers_logo.jpg
Coincidence?

[Resurgam]

I believe that the 19th century industrial era immigrants to Pittsburgh heavily represented Swabia.

[Imperator X]

I believe that the 19th century industrial era immigrants to Pittsburgh heavily represented Swabia.

They were exclusively Protestants no?

[PA. Dutchman]

Pennsylvania Dutch Are Of German Heritage, Not Dutch. How glad I am to find that you know this, nearly no one in America knows this except we PA. Dutch.

[Devin De Blois]

I have a PA Dutch line supposedly out of Silesia called Tschudy on my fathers' side and I've always known it was in reference to Germans. ;)