The Five Sub-Races of Man

[cosmocreator]

For so long I have heard of three divisions of man: Caucasian, Negroid, Mongoloid. But Coon wrote that there are five: Caucasian, Congoid, Capoid, Australoid and Mongoloid.

He asserts that even though Capoid, Congoid and even the Negritos all have dark skin and curly hair, they are not closely related. What does current genetics say about this? Anyone know? He places the Negritos in the Australoid family.

[Tore]

He asserts that even though Capoid, Congoid and even the Negritos all have dark skin and curly hair, they are not closely related. What does current genetics say about this? Anyone know? He places the Negritos in the Australoid family.

Dravidians, who inhabit the Southern Portion of the Indian sub-continent, are no closer genetically to Congoids than Caucasoid populations, suggesting convergent evolution as the main factor in producing an appearance similar to that of the sub-saharan African.

As both races inhabit equatorial climates, this should come as no surprise really.

[cosmocreator]

Dravidians are part of the Australoid family as well I think. He mentions there being pockets of Australoids in India.

[Nordgau]

Yeah, exactly. (edit: referring to what Tronder says. Cosmocreator was three minutes too fast with his new post ;)) The same is with the Negritos, the "little Negroes" of the Andaman Isles. They've got certain Negroid features, because the're was partly a similar development of features, but they don't belong to the Negrids, to the African Negroes.
The same with all of the old, primitive, undeveloped races in the whole area from India over South nEast Asia to Australia and Island groups in the South Sea: The Australids are called Austral Negroes in some older works, but that's misleading.

A division of man first in the three great higher developed race groups - though these three forms developed in different ways and also show different levels of development in their sub-forms: Europids (Caucasids), Negrids (Congids), Mongolids.

Australids, Melanesids, Drawida people, Negritids, Tasmanids etc. are all "Old races": the less developed or even quite undeveloped "rest stuff" of mankind: remained forms, not numerous, pushed back into uninviting spaces.
Though we can throw them in a great view somehow together as "Old forms", there was between several of them no or very little contact, and they differ in their special anthropological features: Negritos, Tasmanids and others are with taxonomical rights own races; that they are very small in their number, compared e. g. with hundered millions of Mongolids, doesn't alter anything of this fact.
It's of course always a problem how many races "exactly" one should count, and what "the" exact number of man's races is, because in cases of close relationship or contact forms or only less different development, it's really the question if one wants to draw a line between two clear different races or not (e. g. Australo-Melanesids together as one form? [and then these again together with primitive forms in India?])

A good question are also the primitive forms of Southern Africa and the Pygmids in the Jungle. I would count them as primitive forms, prushed into uninviting living spaces, but as such forms within the Negrids.

What the hell are the Capoids???

[Allenson]

What the hell are the Capoids???

I believe he's refering to Bushmen or Hottentots or both...

[Frans_Jozef]

I believe he's refering to Bushmen or Hottentots or both...

The proper term is Khoisanid race.
Their unreduced predecessor, known as the Boskop find, contains some hallmarks that Montandon defines as cromagnoid, the feeble outset of the superciliary arches, the steep forehead and much more remarkeable the pentagonoid outline of the vault, that however stretches to punctuated to the hindpart to allow overlap with the Europid form.
The facial skeleton is very infantil, and dwarfes away under a bulging braincap.
However, while today's Bushmen are small-headed, quite short in lenght and incredible narrow in breadth, this Boskop type measured 205mm by 150mm...perhaps its ancestors from North Africa mingled with local Neanderthaler residents, as in Europe, this element could have undergone dramatical change in the main dimensional composition of the face, namely the general broadening which leads to a low and broad, square if not squat face, wherein the alveolar prognatism in that case signifies nothing more than a by-effect of the retraction of the prow-like position of the Neanderthaler mid-face, a ugly relict with however no connoctations of Negrid element(which imo would have result in a rather chimp-like muzzle of the mouth part, the Black race is after all the least neotenic race).

[cosmocreator]

So what do you guys think about Coon's assertion that the races of man are older than the species?

[Nordgau]

I believe he's refering to Bushmen or Hottentots or both...

Aaah... now I see. Eickstedt's Khoisanids. I couldn't associate anything with the term "Capoid", but now I realize in my mind that it relates to the geographical "Cape (of Good Hope)"

[Frans_Jozef]

So what do you guys think about Coon's assertion that the races of man are older than the species?

personally, but under caution, I feel more for Weinert's theory of a world wide neanderthaloid stage, to which I would add that somehow Europids and Australids hark in their morphology back to this ancestral form, however while Australids degenerated and Veddids stagnated, Mongolids galloping in ever evolving neoteny, Europids spiral back and forth in their phylogeny and seem to withstand the neccesity to yield for the forces of nature and the demands of changing subsistence patterns, it's the least physical adapted and specialized race to exist; with a boutade one could say that all the others are branched off from the White Race, in time even expendable since their accomodations are their narrow-cracked answer to a certain life zone which wont last for ever....

[cosmocreator]

I could see all races being derived from Europid since the fetuses of all races and all monkeys for that matter have a long nose in the earliest stage of fetal development.

Mongoloids seemed to be the ones who have adapted best to different environments. Only they live in the artic and at elevations above 10,000 feet (Tibet and Andes) but also in the tropics of SE Asia.

I was wondering about specialization. It seems that those races or species that became specialized are the ones that became extinct when faced with invading new races or species. Are we Europeans becoming specialized? I mean economically since the industrial revolution labor has been divided, specialized. And it is becoming more so I believe. Areas of knowledge are becoming so vast that it takes a specialist to understand his particular area -- but also takes an "integrator" to put all those specialist together to make the whole workable.

[Nordgau]

@ Frans: Where do you personally think the Ainuids should be counted to? Weinert, as I see it, classifies them from their development quite in the middle between "the fair part of the middle line" (Europids) and the "dark part of the middle line" (Australids and other Altrassen). I personally, am not real sure if they are very primitive, eastwards pushed Europids (that would be also what Eickstedt says) or a higher developed forms of the Altrassen.

lol, somehow, I think, both classification possibilities seem to be right and they are just a middle form among the "middle line". But I really ain't an Ainuid expert, just what goes through my amateur mind.

[Nordgau]

Mongoloids seemed to be the ones who have adapted best to different environments. Only they live in the artic and at elevations above 10,000 feet (Tibet and Andes) but also in the tropics of SE Asia.


Mongolids developed and specialized in the inner and inner northern Asian zone: a "cold zone" race indeed, but from that Asian dry cold zone where there are great temperature changes within big time periods. Their specialization in development under such conditions went towards robustness, but a robustness of absolute modesty and an extraordinary adaption capability.

Nordids are also developed in a "cold zone", but in a wet, cloudy cold zone, where temperature and wheather changes are frequent and happen often, but stay in a certain scale.

These differences can also be seen in the mental-psychical characteristics of these two races: Mongolids show also a "robustness" in all matters of culture and civilization, they fit everywhere in and perfectly take and adapt everything what is good and usefull. But they definitively havn't got that genius in skills and creation that the Nordid-Whites showed in all times.

[Tore]

I could see all races being derived from Europid since the fetuses of all races and all monkeys for that matter have a long nose in the earliest stage of fetal development.

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.:)

Coon had a similar thesis, stating that Mongoloids were derived from Europids, although I might not be correct here.

The appearance of most young White children ( I use the term "white" because the same is not seen among Indics and Middle Easterners, thus Europid is not acceptable), from my observations, convey a vague resemblance to Mongoloids ( low rooted nose, epicanthus, flattish forehead).

To me, it seems to be the other way around.

[Frans_Jozef]

@ Frans: Where do you personally think the Ainuids should be counted to? Weinert, as I see it, classifies them from their development quite in the middle between "the fair part of the middle line" (Europids) and the "dark part of the middle line" (Australids and other Altrassen). I personally, am not real sure if they are very primitive, eastwards pushed Europids (that would be also what Eickstedt says) or a higher developed forms of the Altrassen.

lol, somehow, I think, both classification possibilities seem to be right and they are just a middle form among the "middle line". But I really ain't an Ainuid expert, just what goes through my amateur mind.

Some address them as non-white causasoids or other cumbrious fancy denominations.
Others emphasize their alledged Mongolid traits like the depressed nose root, the concave profile and flaring alae.
But there it frankly ends the evidence which could support some Mongolid affliation.
The portruding malars, the combination of a low and broad face(mesoprosopy) is highly reminiscent of Cro Magnon, as well the low square orbits, but it's certainly not a reduced faith-ful recapture of this type.
In fact, its high-headedness, the overhanging browridges and the platyrhine nose shifts the Ainu in a Combe Capelle direction, while long arms and short legs, but fully Europid in lenght, allies the Ainu with the UP derivatives of Scandinavia, even so far in acquiring in purer spcimens the greyish white skin tone of the East Baltic race.
The lenght(190mm) and breadth(143mm) is what one should expect from the Magdalénians in UP Europe.
Summed up, the Ainu bears a caleidoscope of features which recombines in a reduced quality all the traits of the first modern Europids, more or less the same way as the Magdalenians and in the earliest phase of the Mesolithic.
Probably the term UP survivor applies for real only on the Ainu...

http://www.geocities.com/fra31gos/My_page.html

[Nordgau]

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.:)

Coon had a similar thesis, stating that Mongoloids were derived from Europids, although I might not be correct here.


I would agree, but would talk somehow of early Europid forms from which the Mongolids derived.

Quite interesting here is to have a look at Mongolid sub-forms. In Asia the Tungids are the "most Mongolid" forms, the forms where Mongolid features developed mostly - in comparison e. g. to the Palaemongolids, the "Old-Mongolids", where the forms are a bit less developed.

But real interesting are here the Indianid sub-forms. There are less Mongolized, even quite Europoid looking, and more Mongolized sub-forms, especially with regards to facial flatness and the Mongolid eye fold. I read somewhere that this fact can reflect different immigration pushes of the Indians to America: The less or only slight Mongolized forms are groups who arrived earlier, and the more Mongolized forms arrived later from Asia, when the process of Mongolisation had already reached a higher level than among the earlier groups.
Also interesting is to see what racial dynamic has been there between the different groups: A very less Mongolised group with a really somehow half-proto-Europoid look, the Margids, seemed to be pushed into the uninviting spaces of today's South West USA and Western Mexico by the more dynamic Silvids (a high Mongolized group: Middle and Eastern USA) and Centralids (also higher Mongolized: Mexico [Mayas and Azteks!] and Gulf coast of the US).

Of course also this whole idea causes quite problems in details, though all in all I would subscribe to it.

@ Frans: I personally would tend to think that a certain Mongoloid element among the Anuids is a result of mixture, because they of course live place to place or together to Mongolids.

[Frans_Jozef]

@ Frans: I personally would tend to think that a certain Mongoloid element among the Anuids is a result of mixture, because they of course live place to place or together to Mongolids.

That's beyond any doubt and could be of some help to revaluate whether the Anuid in its purest representation recast the UP condition or if some specifics are the result of interbreeding and hereafter following micro-evolution.
True, protuding cheekbones feature in Cro Magnon and with a slightly more recession among the Capellids, but none has ever in any reconstruction been displayed as partly Mongolid and what could lead to condemning the idea of re-emergence of these UP forms to discomfit is that strong bizygomatic arches are in Mendelian sense dominant, so it overimposes and stresses any protusion, or in absence, donates.

[Götterschicksal]

Responding to title:

"The Five Sub-Races of Man"

I think more correct they are sub-species.

[Nordgau]

LOL, you're right. I didn't realize it, until you now pointed it out.

Also correct would simply be: "The Five Races..." or "The Five Greater Races...".

By the way: Did I ever mention, how much I hate it, when lefts and One World ideologists babble of "the human race"?

[cosmocreator]

There's a photo of a Capoid (Khoisanid race) in The Origin of Races. The first thing that came to my mind when I looked at it, was that the features (bone structure) of the person looked Mongoloid even though they had nappy hair and dark skin. Then last night I was reading that the teeth of Mongoloid and Capoid are similair. Do you think they have a common origin?

As a side note, Mongoloids sure have odd teeth.

[Frans_Jozef]

There's a photo of a Capoid (Khoisanid race) in The Origin of Races. The first thing that came to my mind when I looked at it, was that the features (bone structure) of the person looked Mongoloid even though they had nappy hair and dark skin. Then last night I was reading that the teeth of Mongoloid and Capoid are similair. Do you think they have a common origin?

As a side note, Mongoloids sure have odd teeth.

Yes, they have narrow eye slits with inner epicantic folds, which could get explained as some parallel evolution to the Mongolids, to protect the eyes from the blinding sunlight in the desert, very much like the slanting eyes of Arabids...combined with flat and broad nasal root and projecting malars...their robust and large-headed forerunners of the Boskop type uncannyly diplayed some uncanny traits usual associated with Cro Magnon, somehow in the Boskopoids an immanent Caucasoid strain was subdued, but not erased, to re-emerge under new circumstances as an atavism.

[Nordgau]

Slight Mongoloid look of the Khoisanids: I think it's parallel similar development of some features, the same as with the Negroid features of the Negritos on the Andaman Isles.

... or with the Nordoid or Dinaroid nose of the North American Prairie and Woodland Indians (Silvids). lol, lol, lol

[Nordgau]

Mandela belongs quite clear to the Khoisanid type: http://www.anc.org.za/people/mandela.html

[ScotchTape]

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.:)

Coon had a similar thesis, stating that Mongoloids were derived from Europids, although I might not be correct here.

The appearance of most young White children ( I use the term "white" because the same is not seen among Indics and Middle Easterners, thus Europid is not acceptable), from my observations, convey a vague resemblance to Mongoloids ( low rooted nose, epicanthus, flattish forehead).

To me, it seems to be the other way around.

Actually, i have seen little pakistani children who have low rooted nose, epicanthis and flattish forehead when they are born and they evolve to look quite differently.

[Glenlivet]

"Shovel-shaped" concave upper incisor teeth is characterised by anthropologists as a Mongoloid trait and is often used to help identify human remains. Some of the other Mongoloid characteristics are great width between eyes and strong zygomatic arches (cheekbones), epicanthic fold, wider and flatter nasal openings.

The incisor teeth of the Mongoloid races are generally and characteristically "shovel shaped" (other attributes are single-rooted upper first premolars, triple rooted lower first molars, a pattern called sinodonty, which Turner studies in 1984, dental features are more stable than genetic components, and the trait is common in the Americas, among Eskimos, Athabaskans, and South American Amerinds), with retreating chins and none to slight alveolar prognathism. Europids have mid-facial prognathism and Negrids have strong alveolar prognathism.

Shovel-shaped incisors of prehistoric people at Kok Phanom Di:

http://www.chula.ac.th/college/dentistry/cu-dent-j/11/11-1-2e.htm

Ethnic dental analysis of shovel and Carabelli’s traits in a Chinese population:

http://www.ada.org.au/media/documents/Products_Publications/Journal%20Archives/1999%20Archive/March/Hsu%20%2040.pdf

The Significance of Incisor Morphology when using the British Standard Institute for Incisor Classification:

http://www.ki.se/odont/cariologi_endodonti/98b/SanoubarHomayoun,VidaKolahi.pdf





As a side note, Mongoloids sure have odd teeth.